Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Lawrence Weinrauch as they explore the evolving landscape of modern masculinity. From breaking free of rigid expectations to owning your authentic self, this episode offers thought-provoking insights on how to show up more fully in life.
ABOUT
Lawrence Weinrauch is the General Manager of Turtleford Coop, as well as the Mayor of Turtleford, in Saskatchewan. He is also a father to four of his own children and a stepdad to two more. In his spare time, Lawrence studies Contemplative Psychotherapy and spends time outdoors with his wife and their two dogs. A Buddhist practitioner, Lawrence is fascinated by the mind and the dynamics of human interactions.
SHOW NOTES
- Email: lawrence.weinrauch@gmail.com
TRANSCRIPT
00:00:00:16 – 00:00:24:15
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations, where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. I am your host friend, Sarah Noll Wilson, and joining me today is Lawrence Weinrauch, where we’re going to be exploring this idea of what can modern masculinity look like now.
00:00:24:18 – 00:00:45:04
Sarah Noll Wilson
And I’m so excited because this is a conversation he and I have been having over the years. And so I’m just looking forward to hopping into this. But let me tell you a little bit about Lawrence. Lawrence Weinrauch is the general manager of Turtleford Co-op, as well as the mayor of Turtleford in Saskatchewan. He is also the father to four of his own children and a stepdad to two more.
00:00:45:07 – 00:01:01:17
Sarah Noll Wilson
In his spare time, Lawrence studies contemplative psychotherapy and spends his times his time outdoors with his wife and their two dogs. A Buddhist practitioner. Lawrence is fascinated by the mind and the dynamics of human interactions. Lawrence, welcome to the show.
00:01:01:19 – 00:01:04:08
Lawrence Weinrauch
Thank you. Glad to be here.
00:01:04:10 – 00:01:05:05
Sarah Noll Wilson
Take two.
00:01:05:12 – 00:01:05:21
Lawrence Weinrauch
Yes.
00:01:05:21 – 00:01:11:23
Sarah Noll Wilson
So for our friends, we we had some tech issues. So we’re excited to be back. And and the timing couldn’t be better.
00:01:11:24 – 00:01:12:01
Lawrence Weinrauch
Yeah.
00:01:12:02 – 00:01:17:08
Sarah Noll Wilson
Lawrence. What what? You know, just what else do you want us to know about you?
00:01:17:11 – 00:01:31:17
Lawrence Weinrauch
Well, like, I am fascinated with the mind and just just that paradigm of how you’re supposed to be, you know, a man, a husband, and then, like, a business leader or a community leader.
00:01:31:19 – 00:01:32:14
Sarah Noll Wilson
00:01:32:16 – 00:01:39:23
Lawrence Weinrauch
And what all that means and you know, where – just the pressures and stuff that I guess you have to deal with.
00:01:39:26 – 00:01:41:14
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:01:41:16 – 00:01:47:21
Lawrence Weinrauch
And I also I am working on restoring a car. So that’s my therapy right now. So.
00:01:47:23 – 00:01:49:27
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. What kind of car. Yeah.
00:01:50:00 – 00:01:55:00
Lawrence Weinrauch
1966 VW beetle.
00:01:55:02 – 00:01:58:20
Sarah Noll Wilson
Wait. What color? Like, what color is it? Or what color is it going to be?
00:01:58:23 – 00:01:59:14
Lawrence Weinrauch
Well.
00:01:59:16 – 00:02:01:05
Sarah Noll Wilson
Is it like a classic black?
00:02:01:06 – 00:02:07:02
Lawrence Weinrauch
Or it’s a black now, but I’ve been told I should paint it like a ladybug or something, so.
00:02:07:02 – 00:02:13:24
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I, I love that so much. I expect photos.
00:02:13:28 – 00:02:14:20
Lawrence Weinrauch
Yeah. No, I’ll send them.
00:02:14:20 – 00:02:38:19
Sarah Noll Wilson
When it’s done, Yeah. So as we get into this, you know, as I shared, Lawrence and I connected through work that we did with his organization and, one of the things that struck me was one day in a conversation, you pushed us and was like, I feel like we just are continuing to perpetuate the patriarchy and how we approach this.
00:02:38:26 – 00:02:57:25
Sarah Noll Wilson
And Teresa and I both looked at each other like, who the hell is this? Like, okay. Like, let’s let’s have a let’s have a conversation. And, and obviously this is a topic we’ve explored on the show in different ways of just understanding, sometimes the ways that the expectations or the rules that aren’t really rules are placed on us.
00:02:57:27 – 00:03:14:15
Sarah Noll Wilson
So let’s take us back a little bit. Lawrence, what inspired your journey? To start interrogating, like, what I like, what we’ve talked about is the unhealthy role of patriarchy in our culture? And your life. Right. Like.
00:03:14:17 – 00:03:41:17
Lawrence Weinrauch
I think for me, like, it started kind of I was working at a different company and it was very much there’s the need for the bottom line. And my I felt that my identity and my value as a person was more on how well I did it work, rather than how well I did at home. So it ended up it actually ruined the marriage out of that whole thing.
00:03:41:17 – 00:04:14:21
Lawrence Weinrauch
But it was just that exploration of what really is important in life and why is it that way? And then I got thinking back to, you know, just the way my dad and mom interacted and just that whole generational kind of, learning or whatever you want to call it, like. So that’s kind of where it started. And then it was just realizing that you’re dealing you’re humans dealing with other humans trying to get through this life together.
00:04:14:21 – 00:04:20:00
Lawrence Weinrauch
So why not find a better way that’s more like holistic in a way?
00:04:20:01 – 00:04:55:10
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s it’s, I don’t know that I’ve ever heard you say that, but also, I think, speak to the experience a lot of people have of feeling like my value or my worth as a human is directly related to how much I can produce, instead of the impact that I can make. And, you know, and I and we know that there’s right like there’s a lot of studies that back this up that particularly for men, that becomes even more internalized.
00:04:55:17 – 00:05:26:19
Sarah Noll Wilson
than for women. Right. Again, not in all cases. But often it’s the case. And so, you know, one of the things when we talk about this idea of patriarchy, it can be really easy to focus on how does that negatively impact women or people who are not right, like a white man in power? But it’s equally important to talk about how some of those like rigid rules of how you should be and what your value is can also impact men.
00:05:26:24 – 00:05:42:05
Sarah Noll Wilson
And so I’m just I would love to hear from like your experience and observations. You know, this like what are the ways in which it negatively not only just impacts people, but specifically men and even, you know, like to expand on your own experience.
00:05:42:08 – 00:05:59:11
Lawrence Weinrauch
Well, like like I’ve always felt like an underdog basically since I was a kid growing up and even going into the business world. And it seems if you’re not the alpha male type, then your your voice isn’t heard.
00:05:59:13 – 00:06:00:11
Sarah Noll Wilson
00:06:00:13 – 00:06:11:24
Lawrence Weinrauch
And you almost have to be like an overexaggerated, you know, version of yourself to actually be taken seriously.
00:06:11:26 – 00:06:12:22
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:06:12:25 – 00:06:21:28
Lawrence Weinrauch
And then you become labeled and, oh, you’re that guy or or you don’t want to be too big a complainer because you’re rocking the boat too much.
00:06:21:28 – 00:06:23:18
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:06:23:21 – 00:06:33:21
Lawrence Weinrauch
And I think it’s such a you see people who don’t fit the mold and they’re passed over. Because they think differently.
00:06:33:24 – 00:06:35:22
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:06:35:24 – 00:06:50:19
Lawrence Weinrauch
And then I always, always thought like we always wait till we’re old and go, well you know I should have done that better. Or now that I’m old I know better. And I’m like why wait until you’re old? Why not start doing that now?
00:06:50:22 – 00:07:13:02
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah, that that. That idea of not, you know, of either being the underdog or feeling out like an outcast or like I don’t belong. You know, that’s something that, again, we’ve explored in different episodes, you know, particularly when you think about that idea of, imposter syndrome.
00:07:13:06 – 00:07:13:13
Lawrence Weinrauch
Yeah.
00:07:13:14 – 00:07:23:25
Sarah Noll Wilson
Usually shows up for people who are in, in a situation – Neha Sampat, who we interviewed on this very, very early on in the show, described it so beautifully.
00:07:23:25 – 00:07:28:11
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s like that typically shows up for people when they’re in a system that wasn’t built for them.
00:07:28:14 – 00:07:28:21
Lawrence Weinrauch
Yeah.
00:07:28:24 – 00:07:50:03
Sarah Noll Wilson
And so one of the one of the things that I’m curious about to hear from you is, and this has been a personal reflection for me in totally unrelated way. Right. But like, when that when, when you feel like you have to show up in a way that is different than, like, your truth, there is an amount of masking that you’re doing.
00:07:50:05 – 00:08:06:15
Sarah Noll Wilson
And I’m curious like for you what was that. What was the cost of that masking to you. Right. Of like oh I have to stretch, I have to show up in this way. I have to be more of that alpha male. I have to be more aggressive. I can’t be emotional. Like, right. I got to be tough and make the decisions and all of this.
00:08:06:15 – 00:08:18:00
Sarah Noll Wilson
But like, there’s so much exhaustion that happens when you feel like you have to show up in a way that is fundamentally different than what your true self is.
00:08:18:02 – 00:08:49:25
Lawrence Weinrauch
Well, I think it’s, it’s like a mental imbalance, almost like, because you’re putting on such a mask for your work or for that type of situation that you go back home to where it’s supposed to be safe, and you either let that mask go and become somewhat completely opposite, or you some of that stuff trickles into that atmosphere, and then it doesn’t work because it’s a yeah, it shouldn’t it should be a softer place.
00:08:49:27 – 00:08:51:20
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:08:51:22 – 00:09:05:26
Lawrence Weinrauch
And I think now like even just because now I show up everywhere, it’s me like. You know, they know what they’re getting. But it’s such a, it’s almost a lonely road because nobody does that.
00:09:05:29 – 00:09:06:23
Sarah Noll Wilson
00:09:06:26 – 00:09:19:00
Lawrence Weinrauch
So it’s, it takes a little bit of that kind of self-reflection and kind of pumping yourself up, going like, no, this is like, be genuine. This is who you are. Yeah. That’s good enough.
00:09:19:02 – 00:10:02:03
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah. It’s, I think that, you know, so many of us mask in different ways depending on the situation and depending on your identity, right. Like, we know that for some communities, they have to code switch in order to, you know, be able to exist in maybe a dominant white culture or if, you I mean, just a whole I mean, it it can look so, so many different ways and, and I and and I feel like what I observe in myself when I’m in those moments when I see clients who are in those situations, our loved ones is, yeah, there’s this like, it’s like this constant, repetition that who you are is
00:10:02:03 – 00:10:30:18
Sarah Noll Wilson
not good enough that. Right. Like, it’s this constant, like you can’t just be you and yet damn, does it feel like an act of courage to just be you? At least it did for me. Like what. What, what was that. You know, you talked about it being a lonely road. And I’m just curious to hear like what were those moments like when you could intentionally see yourself set down the mask and be like, nope, this is me.
00:10:30:23 – 00:10:34:06
Sarah Noll Wilson
Like, what? What was possible for you in your journey?
00:10:34:08 – 00:11:04:02
Lawrence Weinrauch
Oh, I think honestly, everything was possible. Like, I can remember, you know, so. And maybe this is too much information, but. So my first wife left. I had four kids, so I became a single dad dealing with all that. Then I got to the point where I’m like, am I becoming this, like, identifying myself as this sad single dad guy?
00:11:04:04 – 00:11:04:27
Sarah Noll Wilson
00:11:05:00 – 00:11:11:29
Lawrence Weinrauch
Or do I have an opportunity to, you know, move forward. So I kind of hit almost like a rock bottom.
00:11:12:01 – 00:11:13:03
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:11:13:06 – 00:11:27:23
Lawrence Weinrauch
And then I realized I have nothing to lose, you know, because I’ve basically lost everything now. So now everything’s open to me. So then it’s just that freedom like you really start understanding that you’re good enough.
00:11:27:26 – 00:11:29:06
Sarah Noll Wilson
00:11:29:08 – 00:11:36:22
Lawrence Weinrauch
So it can be a bit. It’s a hard journey because that’s a hard that’s a hard lesson to go through. But
00:11:36:29 – 00:11:37:21
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:11:37:24 – 00:11:39:25
Lawrence Weinrauch
I think it’s almost necessary.
00:11:39:27 – 00:12:00:10
Sarah Noll Wilson
And it’s not like something you just wake up and go like, oh, okay, I’m gonna. Yeah, I’ll just be myself, right? Like I’m just going to. And even, you know, I actually just last night was talking with, like a colleague slash mentee peer, right. Somebody who is newer in her career and, you know, she got essentially kind of got feedback.
00:12:00:10 – 00:12:01:20
Sarah Noll Wilson
She’s too much.
00:12:01:23 – 00:12:02:15
Lawrence Weinrauch
00:12:02:18 – 00:12:30:03
Sarah Noll Wilson
And I was like, I mean like too much for who? Too much for them? Like that. I mean you’re not too much right. Like let’s, you know, and, and just talking through like how do you stay grounded and anchor to, to who you are and and what that truth is because it is, it is, there’s something just really powerful with that. What what do you feel like?
00:12:30:03 – 00:13:02:00
Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, when we talk about this idea of of patriarchy, masculinity. And I want to be clear, folks, too, who are listening like this, I’m not anti masculinity, but. And I’ll say this and and there’s an opportunity to expand it. Just like there’s an opportunity to expand all the identities of like, well how do we just show up as our true selves and like and I guess like I think about these cultural expectations as rules.
00:13:02:03 – 00:13:21:06
Sarah Noll Wilson
And so what I was curious about to hear from you is what are some of those sort of rules of masculinity right, that you had to work to redefine or let go of or say, yeah, I’m not going to do that anymore. That’s just that’s not going to be how I show up. I mean, you already kind of mentioned some of them, but I would I would love to hear more.
00:13:21:09 – 00:13:47:01
Lawrence Weinrauch
I think, I think just being like just really believing that I’m, you know, I’m good enough. I don’t have to push to the next level. I don’t have to, you know, pursue the next dream, or I can go in a room and say, I’m just a white guy trying to work through life. Like I might not know the answer and not be intimidated.
00:13:47:01 – 00:14:05:02
Lawrence Weinrauch
Like I always say, you’ll never find a guy, ask for directions. And I was that guy too. Because it’s like, oh my God, it’s a weakness. Well, no, like just ask for directions. You can’t do everything by yourself. It’s impossible. You need that that help.
00:14:05:04 – 00:14:05:29
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:14:06:01 – 00:14:10:13
Lawrence Weinrauch
And it’s not a weakness. It’s just that’s in your DNA.
00:14:10:15 – 00:14:36:19
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. It’s. Well and that’s part of the right. Like the cultural conditioning, particularly as we think about like Western culture. Right. Which is maybe different than other places is there’s this, there’s a lot of messages that men receive about about this idea of like, what makes you weak, right? Emotions make you weak, close relationships make you weak.
00:14:36:21 – 00:14:55:07
Sarah Noll Wilson
Asking for help makes you weak, right? Not knowing makes you weak. God, isn’t that well, okay. Like what? What is it? What is it about being weak that’s such a threat? I don’t know the answer to that, but I’m curious to get your thoughts.
00:14:55:09 – 00:15:27:11
Lawrence Weinrauch
Well, I talked to a he’s a PhD friend of mine, and I said, you never really own yourself. Like, when you’re first born, you’re given a name. You’re told as a boy or a girl how you’re supposed to act or who you’re supposed to be. Then as you’re growing up, you’re told by your parents or by your friends and whatever who you’re supposed to date and oh, don’t, don’t look at that person because you’re settling or that person is not right.
00:15:27:13 – 00:15:59:04
Lawrence Weinrauch
And then you’re trying to be defined by a job. And it’s just you’re never really almost given that opportunity to just define yourself completely, like even. And then that gets into the ownership. My second wife has she doesn’t have my she didn’t take my name. That’s a big deal to people. And like it’s a name like. And I can understand how like they might have known you as Sarah whatever before.
00:15:59:06 – 00:16:04:24
Lawrence Weinrauch
And that’s an identity. Yeah. And then if you get married and you change your name, well that’s a new identity.
00:16:04:26 – 00:16:05:17
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:16:05:20 – 00:16:10:28
Lawrence Weinrauch
So it’s almost like, do I have to lose this person to become this person? Like it’s.
00:16:10:28 – 00:16:12:24
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:16:12:27 – 00:16:15:13
Lawrence Weinrauch
So it’s just a fascinating kind of thing.
00:16:15:16 – 00:16:23:12
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s I, I really appreciate that. That’s quite provocative, Lawrence. That idea of, like, when do you actually get to own yourself?
00:16:23:20 – 00:16:23:24
Lawrence Weinrauch
Yeah.
00:16:24:00 – 00:16:39:10
Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, and like and reclaim it. And it’s interesting. Nick’s listening. So he knows I’m going to tell this story. Right. So like with the name I my identity always right with Sarah Noll. And nobody would ever – often people would never just call me Sarah.
00:16:39:10 – 00:17:00:13
Sarah Noll Wilson
I was always Sarah Noll. And it’s it’s a huge part of my identity. And, I’m giggling because it’s my story too. So we’re going for it, Nick. But, but like one of the things when we were first getting married, we were young, he was like, I don’t, I don’t want you to change mine. But I just like, there’s something about, like, I just want us to be on the same team.
00:17:00:13 – 00:17:20:04
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. And I didn’t know any different. Whatever. So now I’m Noll Wilson, which now that is my new identity. But what I love is, like, we just refer to ourselves as the Noll Wilson family. And we’ve even had conversations of like, maybe it’s time for you to change your name to, like, Nick Noll Wilson. And like, now we’re officially on the team.
00:17:20:04 – 00:17:57:04
Sarah Noll Wilson
But then I was like, it’s such a pain in the ass to go through all that process. I’m not going to, you know, like ask you. The reason I’m giggling about it is like, Nick forgot that I. That he had asked me that. I was like, that was my wedding gift to you is adding to your name. But but this idea of of like all of the, all of the places that are shaping us and and telling us like, well, in order for you to be successful, you need to look like this in order for you to I mean, you know, like even even something, like professionalism, right?
00:17:57:04 – 00:18:21:02
Sarah Noll Wilson
You got to wear a suit, you got to have a strong handshake. You got to make eye contact. In order to be effective, you got to. Right? Like, be assertive when really, like, that’s just one way of of of being effective and like I yeah I don’t I’m just like I’m, I’m thinking back to like moments in my life right now where it’s like, oh, that’s when I started to go, this is who I am.
00:18:21:04 – 00:18:24:01
Sarah Noll Wilson
Like, I’m going to own this right now.
00:18:24:03 – 00:18:39:12
Lawrence Weinrauch
I often think of like, So John Lennon, everybody was mad at Yoko Ono when he lost or left the Beatles. And then he releases that song Watching the Wheels. Maybe he was just done being a Beatle.
00:18:39:15 – 00:18:40:03
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:18:40:06 – 00:18:56:13
Lawrence Weinrauch
But we need somebody to blame. You know, cause it couldn’t be him making that decision like, you know, and it’s the same thing here. Like, you know, I’ve been told. Well, you can’t possibly be happy with what you’re making right now. Yes, I am.
00:18:56:15 – 00:18:56:27
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:18:57:02 – 00:19:07:09
Lawrence Weinrauch
You know, like. Yeah. And I tend to have toys like, I’ll bring one. So I have this on my desk.
00:19:07:12 – 00:19:10:22
Sarah Noll Wilson
Are for people who are listening. It’s a little Godzilla.
00:19:10:24 – 00:19:18:12
Lawrence Weinrauch
Yeah. So it’s and they’re like, oh my God, you got toys. You just like they don’t take you serious. I’m like, well, that’s part of my personality.
00:19:18:15 – 00:19:19:09
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:19:19:11 – 00:19:26:00
Lawrence Weinrauch
Is that whole thing. So it’s just, you know, why can’t that be part of the package?
00:19:26:03 – 00:19:26:20
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:19:26:22 – 00:19:33:29
Lawrence Weinrauch
You know, instead of they always say bring your whole self to work, well, get ready because this is all of me.
00:19:34:01 – 00:20:12:27
Sarah Noll Wilson
And, and, and sometimes I think, that can feel threatening to people or that can maybe like, sometimes it can hold up a mirror of, a different way of being that they maybe didn’t think was possible for them, which I think is what’s happening right now in our culture where you do see, like again, let’s just look at it through the lens of, men like more men talking about mental health, more men talking about how do we have relationships that are not just, you know, if I if I’m in a heteronormative relationship that’s not just with my girlfriend or my wife, how do we have more, better relationships with each other?
00:20:12:27 – 00:20:38:05
Sarah Noll Wilson
How do we show more emotion? And I and I wonder if some of that, like, aggressive pushback we’re seeing on this movement, might come from a place of actual like sadness or maybe even fear of – you’re – You are presenting something that I didn’t think was an option for me. And like, I don’t like that. So because I suffered, you have to suffer, right?
00:20:38:05 – 00:20:48:16
Sarah Noll Wilson
Like, and I’m curious, you know, like just again, like in the conversations you’ve had. Yeah. What’s your experience been?
00:20:48:18 – 00:21:16:28
Lawrence Weinrauch
I think I think you kind of hit the nail on the head there, because I think it is that it is that suffering or that fear of like, like what do I do now? I don’t know how to be in this space. And like, it sucks. I know, I like since talking about this stuff or realizing things like, you almost realize how much suffering you’re going through.
00:21:17:01 – 00:21:18:13
Sarah Noll Wilson
00:21:18:16 – 00:21:30:28
Lawrence Weinrauch
And the person that can, you know, cut through everything and be the most vulnerable with sometimes becomes the enemy because then they’re like, oh, you got to put a guard up because that’s getting too far.
00:21:31:00 – 00:21:32:22
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
00:21:32:24 – 00:21:39:03
Lawrence Weinrauch
You know, and there’s a fear that if you go all the way, you’re never going to come back or you’ll come back weaker.
00:21:39:06 – 00:21:46:09
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. It’s, there’s something about that language you used of. I don’t know how to be in the space.
00:21:46:15 – 00:21:47:13
Lawrence Weinrauch
Yeah.
00:21:47:15 – 00:21:51:17
Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s.
00:21:51:19 – 00:22:00:06
Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s interesting to me. Especially when, you know, again, like most systems were designed by and for a certain type of man.
00:22:00:09 – 00:22:01:00
Lawrence Weinrauch
Yeah.
00:22:01:02 – 00:22:36:17
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. But that’s the reality, right? Yeah. I’m, I’m in the US. Right. And our country was founded on male beliefs. Our system has been built on this. And how how risky that is. I think that that is something that I’ve seen and again, in my friends, family, clients who’ve been in a similar journey for you of, of, wanting to stretch differently, wanting to show up differently and recognizing how risky that feels.
00:22:36:19 – 00:22:36:27
Lawrence Weinrauch
Yeah.
00:22:36:28 – 00:23:07:08
Sarah Noll Wilson
And and again, isn’t that there’s something really sad about that of like how risky it feels to just be yourself, how risky it feels to, you know, to show up vulnerably or honestly or, God forbid, with tenderness, you know, and, and how lonely that must be, you know, like, that’s something that Nick and I talk about a lot is I have an unbelievable support system of really powerful women that we – like
00:23:07:08 – 00:23:25:24
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s like even just hearing you go like, oh, if you go too far, you might not be able to come back. And I’m like, oh, we go far. Like we, you know, like we go far always. And it’s and there’s something. So, I’m a better person because of that love I receive and because of those people in my life.
00:23:25:24 – 00:23:40:23
Sarah Noll Wilson
And it always has made me so sad that so many of the men in my life, they don’t have that support system outside of if they have a partner or maybe a family member or things like that.
00:23:40:25 – 00:24:01:00
Lawrence Weinrauch
And I think, I don’t know if you have it in the States, but there’s a commercial now and it’s a football game and there’s two guys sitting there. The one guy looks real sad, and the guy that just looks like a normal guy is sitting beside him, and it ends up being that normal guy that has the mental health issues.
00:24:01:02 – 00:24:03:24
Lawrence Weinrauch
Like we got to talk about that.
00:24:03:27 – 00:24:05:27
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:24:06:00 – 00:24:31:04
Lawrence Weinrauch
You know, you want you’re supposed to teach your, your sons to be a certain way, but that the way doesn’t work, you know, like it’s it’s kind of frustrating because it’s because as a parent, you see that, you know, it’s like trying to teach somebody you don’t need the latest and greatest item, but all your friends can have it.
00:24:31:04 – 00:24:32:15
Lawrence Weinrauch
But that’s just their problem.
00:24:32:17 – 00:24:34:09
Sarah Noll Wilson
Like
00:24:34:11 – 00:24:46:18
Lawrence Weinrauch
Well just takes a lot of a lot of the discussion honestly that and that takes time. And I don’t think time is is a big commodity anymore.
00:24:46:20 – 00:25:23:20
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah. Or it feels more scarce than it needs to maybe. Right. It’s. Well and I’m curious, you know, to that point of as you’ve been exploring these topics around systems of oppression, as you’ve been exploring topics around, like toxic masculinity versus more healthy masculinity, how has that shaped your relationships with your kids? And I’m sure and I imagine depending on on how old they were, and also just the fact that they are right in this culture, that you may see moments where you’re like, oh, damn, I don’t want you to keep it in, buddy, like I don’t.
00:25:23:21 – 00:25:29:13
Sarah Noll Wilson
I want you to be able to like, express it. What does that evolution been like for you?
00:25:29:15 – 00:26:04:18
Lawrence Weinrauch
It’s actually been it’s been good because there’s like, I know my youngest one time broke down on the phone with me once, and I’m like, I said, you needed to do this so much before, And he goes, well, I didn’t want you to be embarrassed or not be proud. And I said, I’m proud of you all the time and more now that you’re actually capable, comfortable to express yourself and I think it’s funny, as parents, you want to control everything so they don’t have to, you know, to help them.
00:26:04:20 – 00:26:05:26
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:26:05:29 – 00:26:13:19
Lawrence Weinrauch
But you almost have to let them go and learn and then be there to help kind of pick up the pieces if necessary.
00:26:13:22 – 00:26:21:09
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah. Like it’s it’s not a question of if it’s when. Yeah. Right. Like when they make mistakes when they’re hurt when something happens to them.
00:26:21:09 – 00:26:22:04
Lawrence Weinrauch
Yeah.
00:26:22:06 – 00:26:43:00
Sarah Noll Wilson
What was, what was can I ask. Not without going into detail, but I’m just curious like I, I, I love that modeling of validating like, no, this is good. Actually, I’m even more proud of you because you’re expressing that. How did that how did your son show up in that moment? Maybe different than how he has before?
00:26:43:02 – 00:26:55:07
Lawrence Weinrauch
I think he he like. I think because he was a it was a job situation and a very like masculine type and all. You got to suck it up.
00:26:55:07 – 00:26:55:26
Sarah Noll Wilson
Suck it up.
00:26:56:03 – 00:27:12:10
Lawrence Weinrauch
Yeah. And he just had enough and he was able to kind of unload and come up with a solution. And it wasn’t like I was trying to tell him what to do. I was just saying well, Like I wasn’t listening more than talking. Really.
00:27:12:12 – 00:27:13:07
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:27:13:09 – 00:27:30:14
Lawrence Weinrauch
And I think it opens up that space where they can, you know, they can feel safe and go, yeah, I might not be doing what you’re doing as a career. I might want to do something totally different. And this is frustrating me and I don’t want you to fix it. I just want you to listen.
00:27:30:17 – 00:27:31:00
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:27:31:07 – 00:27:32:03
Lawrence Weinrauch
Kind of thing.
00:27:32:05 – 00:28:09:02
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. That’s so beautiful. And I think that that, you know, I’m always looking for the opportunities to pull out where are, like, things people can try and practice. And one of the things that I, I appreciated about that example is and this is true not just for like men, but just all of us, that when somebody takes a vulnerable step with you, when when you know, when they share something that feels, raw or right, like, scary even, how do we how do we, in the moment normalize like, hey, this is normal, this is healthy.
00:28:09:02 – 00:28:35:15
Sarah Noll Wilson
And it’s you’re absolutely safe with me. Because even just the because that’s something that I see and we’ve talked about this actually in some previous episodes is sometimes we don’t know how to show up when somebody is emotional or sometimes we don’t know how to show up when somebody is struggling. And, you know, one of the most powerful thing we can do is, is to be present with them and to validate and be like, yeah, this I’m cool with this, actually.
00:28:35:21 – 00:28:40:01
Sarah Noll Wilson
Think this is this is what it means to be a whole human with each other.
00:28:40:04 – 00:28:53:12
Lawrence Weinrauch
And I think even I’ve had conversations at work where, like, they’re tearing up, I’m tearing up. Like, it’s just you’re sharing that experience rather than, you know, trying to sit all stoic. And
00:28:53:14 – 00:28:54:06
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:28:54:06 – 00:28:58:22
Lawrence Weinrauch
Just give them what they need to get them out of the office so you don’t have to talk to them anymore.
00:28:58:26 – 00:29:22:22
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Right. Right, right. Like, slide the tissues and, like, clean yourself up because it’s uncomfortable for me. Yeah, yeah. And that idea of sharing the moment I was I was fortunate or I am fortunate I should present tense, not past. My dad was incredibly emotional, incredibly, and not even emotional. I hate using that. Let me rephrase that, because when people are like, I’m not emotional, I’m like, what emotions don’t you experience?
00:29:22:22 – 00:29:48:19
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right? Like we’re all emotional beings. Yeah, but he he, I know the moments in a TV show that I was like, all the shoulders are starting to come – the like he’s. And he’s trying to withhold it. And and it’s one of the things that I appreciate so much is like he normalized it for us. But there were times when I saw people make kind of jokes or like, oh, there’s daddy’s crying again.
00:29:48:19 – 00:30:06:12
Sarah Noll Wilson
Like he cries at everything. And like, nobody would ever say that, you know, necessarily about a woman. But there’s something that I love because my brothers are both very sensitive and, you know, like, can show that kind of emotion and, and honestly, like, I didn’t realize how unique that was.
00:30:06:14 – 00:30:07:09
Lawrence Weinrauch
00:30:07:11 – 00:30:49:29
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. Like, and, and there’s I just, I don’t yeah. I, it’s again, it’s something like Nick and I have had a lot of conversations of how do you how do you reconnect to those emotions when you essentially cut them off for so long? So what were some of the things like either the way like the, the, the questions you asked yourself or the thoughts you had or the people you engaged with or what you were reading to that you found particularly helpful as you were like reclaiming this whole side of Lawrence?
00:30:50:02 – 00:31:19:19
Lawrence Weinrauch
I think it’s just understanding the story behind the person. Like, I remember reading a eulogy once, like, or, funeral notice, and it was one of the guys. It was. It was an addict, like a bad addict in town. Ended up passing away and it started out and it was his niece, I think. And she said, well, you might know him as such and such and blah, blah, blah, but I knew him as uncle.
00:31:19:22 – 00:31:43:27
Lawrence Weinrauch
And then she went into this big description of the who she knew, and it really made me think, like, I can remember, you know, and I was never homeless, but I remember eating out of a dumpster, you know, not, you know, and doing criminal activity, you could say or whatever, but just like being that open.
00:31:44:00 – 00:31:44:24
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:31:44:26 – 00:31:53:29
Lawrence Weinrauch
And then seeing myself in the world now and I tell everybody that and they’re like, oh no, he couldn’t have been. You’re a GM. I’m like, yeah, no, that’s who I am. That’s part of me.
00:31:54:01 – 00:31:55:02
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:31:55:05 – 00:32:12:17
Lawrence Weinrauch
So then I see like people, you know, homeless people on the street, let’s say. And instead of just passing them over, it’s like, well, who were they before? What, what little switch in their life created that, you know, spiraled into this?
00:32:12:19 – 00:32:13:18
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:32:13:20 – 00:32:22:12
Lawrence Weinrauch
Just to be a little bit more empathetic with them rather than, you know, just write them off as, as wasted or whatever.
00:32:22:15 – 00:32:28:19
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. It can be easy. I think sometimes like either to ignore or to judge.
00:32:28:22 – 00:32:29:06
Lawrence Weinrauch
Yeah.
00:32:29:08 – 00:32:53:15
Sarah Noll Wilson
Instead of like being compassionate, like curious of, like nobody’s born, right, like nobody’s born into this. We’re all shaped in certain ways and that impacts us. And like, and and you know, and when we think about how we show up, right. Like there are these spoken and unspoken kind of rigid expectations, right?
00:32:53:15 – 00:33:17:05
Sarah Noll Wilson
Like I should be nurturing as a woman. I should be a good cook. I should want of whatever. Like I should be. Yeah. I don’t know, like, oh, just all the bullshit, but I, you know, and likewise like, well, man, you should be tough. So I, I have loved this discourse that’s been happening in the United States. Anyway, by the time this airs, this is going to air in a couple of months.
00:33:17:05 – 00:33:42:13
Sarah Noll Wilson
So who knows? We could be in a very different state. And like, I don’t I don’t want to go there yet, but like, but there’s been this conversation of how do we expand and maybe that’s the better word than redefine, but how do we expand this idea of masculinity? And, and there’s been a lot of conversations around this language of like modern masculinity and what that might look like.
00:33:42:13 – 00:34:13:04
Sarah Noll Wilson
And obviously, like, you know, toxic masculinity doesn’t serve the person and it doesn’t serve the people around them. So some people have used the language of tonic masculinity like it’s a time like a tonic to the soul. So I’m curious to hear from you like, what? Like what words would you want associated with modern masculinity now?
00:34:13:06 – 00:34:31:05
Lawrence Weinrauch
I don’t know about words specifically, but I think just the idea that you’re not. Nobody’s getting out of this alive. You know, you’re not alone. We’re all human people. So let’s start being, like, get that humanity back into.
00:34:31:10 – 00:34:31:21
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:34:31:24 – 00:34:38:08
Lawrence Weinrauch
into people and just and redefine what success is.
00:34:38:11 – 00:34:38:23
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:34:38:29 – 00:35:05:24
Lawrence Weinrauch
Because we’re pushed with business, with media that you need to have this. You need to have that and then you’re successful. When I retire, I want to get a small house, maybe 600ft². That’s it. Have no possessions. Basically just just live, just be. And I think that’s where we’re missing out is we don’t we’re not accepting that as being successful.
00:35:05:26 – 00:35:41:12
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Well, it’s like I’m even catching myself in this, even in this conversation of masculinity, of like, we don’t even have to limit it to that. Right? Like, it doesn’t have to be. It’s just like, what? What does success look like for you? What is a fulfilled life, right. Like that. And and that can be really difficult. Because when there are so many again, messages, I mean, this is something that I know, Nick has talked on the show before of he’s incredibly creative.
00:35:41:12 – 00:35:51:20
Sarah Noll Wilson
He has a high value on like around his artistry. He’s an incredible partner to me. But like, chasing the corporate leader, that was never going to be his path.
00:35:51:22 – 00:35:51:29
Lawrence Weinrauch
Yeah.
00:35:52:06 – 00:36:15:10
Sarah Noll Wilson
And like, and it took a long time, for him to realize like that, that tension between like, oh, I’m supposed to be aggressive and I’m supposed to be assertive, or I’m supposed to be career ambitious, and, like, that’s just not me. Caused a lot of pain and suffering for him. And again, I’m not sharing anything he didn’t share on a previous episode.
00:36:15:12 – 00:36:35:18
Sarah Noll Wilson
And getting to the place of like, well, no, success is creating, you know, like supporting you. Success is being able to do the kind of work that I like to do, the success is being able, you know, for us to be able to spend the time together like we want to. And it’s and it’s hard sometimes when you’re like, oh, but I’m supposed to have so many followers.
00:36:35:18 – 00:36:58:15
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, I’m supposed to have like, I’m supposed to be making six figures. I’m supposed to be making, you know, like supposed to have this car or whatever the case is. But there’s something so beautiful about just, like, not like I get going back to your point of, like, you get to own your life. Yeah. You know, you might not be able to control all aspects of it, right, because of external factors.
00:36:58:17 – 00:37:02:02
Sarah Noll Wilson
But like but how do you want to show up in that moment.
00:37:02:04 – 00:37:10:06
Lawrence Weinrauch
Yeah. Basically I guess that would be the t shirt slogan, I want my life back.
00:37:10:08 – 00:37:27:18
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love that. What’s your wish for people like we’ll expand it. Not even like, what’s your hope or wish for people who are listening to this? And as we explore not just this idea of masculinity, but just the identities and the limitations and like. Yeah,
00:37:27:20 – 00:37:51:06
Lawrence Weinrauch
I honestly hope people continue the conversation. Like I would love. I’ve been in different online classes and stuff. And I said, you know what? I’d love to just show up, go for a walk in the park. You know, nothing more than just being in that space together, because I think there’s such a lack of that and just that connectedness.
00:37:51:09 – 00:38:04:11
Lawrence Weinrauch
And I think so many people are going in eight – like, millions of directions and we’re banging into each other, but we’re not we’re not actually connecting. We’re more just ping ponging.
00:38:04:14 – 00:38:05:12
Sarah Noll Wilson
00:38:05:14 – 00:38:15:06
Lawrence Weinrauch
And I think that’s where some of the, some of the problems become is because you don’t, you don’t realize who you’re who you’re connecting with.
00:38:15:09 – 00:38:16:29
Sarah Noll Wilson
Like.
00:38:17:02 – 00:38:23:29
Lawrence Weinrauch
You know, I’ve met well, actually, I met James Hetfield, like, lead singer of Metallica.
00:38:24:01 – 00:38:24:14
Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay.
00:38:24:18 – 00:38:26:02
Lawrence Weinrauch
In Budapest.
00:38:26:04 – 00:38:27:04
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure.
00:38:27:07 – 00:38:39:14
Lawrence Weinrauch
So we’re walking on a school trip. He’s sitting on a bench. I happened to walk by, going, Oh, my God, that’s so and so. So I stopped and talked. You know, it was just. Why not? He’s a human being.
00:38:39:21 – 00:38:41:00
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah.
00:38:41:03 – 00:39:03:06
Lawrence Weinrauch
You know, and I think we miss out on not so much because we’re trying to we’re trying to be the best or like you said, get the most likes or, you know, I need to have the perfect picture. I’d rather see the thing happen or see the experience than have a picture of it. You know, it’s and I think that’s where I.
00:39:03:09 – 00:39:05:27
Lawrence Weinrauch
Yeah. You be you, you know.
00:39:05:27 – 00:39:08:23
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. And create the space for other people to do the same like.
00:39:09:00 – 00:39:09:08
Lawrence Weinrauch
Yeah.
00:39:09:08 – 00:39:21:10
Sarah Noll Wilson
And well, you know, I mean and that’s, that’s been the evolution of our relationship is like, oh, we should just like, have regular chats and be like, oh, what are you thinking about? This is what I’m thinking about. What’s happening in your world.
00:39:21:10 – 00:39:51:18
Sarah Noll Wilson
Well, this is what’s happening in my world. And you’re right, like, there’s so much surface level and like that, that visual banging is so appropriate, right? There’s just so much surface level, that we don’t always slow down enough or know how to. Like. That’s so much of the work we do is just showing people how to be in conversation with somebody, have those high quality moments of connection, you know, which helps with loneliness and helps with, mental health.
00:39:51:18 – 00:39:56:17
Sarah Noll Wilson
And like so many things, is is being connected to your community.
00:39:56:23 – 00:40:05:18
Lawrence Weinrauch
Yeah. And you think of on the farm, your socializing space is around the kitchen table.
00:40:05:21 – 00:40:06:14
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:40:06:17 – 00:40:16:16
Lawrence Weinrauch
And you’d have like that percolated coffee and all that. You go to the, the city. It’s in the living room. Yeah. I think even that dynamic is changing.
00:40:16:18 – 00:40:17:09
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:40:17:12 – 00:40:23:02
Lawrence Weinrauch
Where we should have more like more kitchen table talks I guess.
00:40:23:05 – 00:40:30:16
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. Or like comfy in the couch in the living room. Just with the TV off, you know.
00:40:30:20 – 00:40:31:03
Lawrence Weinrauch
Exactly.
00:40:31:05 – 00:41:05:04
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Being able to explore that. Yeah. What, as we, like, wind down our time together. You know, one thing that I always like people to think about is what would be some questions of reflection that you would offer our audience to think about for their own life. You know, just related to all of this. Like what? What are some of those questions maybe you’ve asked yourself or that you have found valuable?
00:41:05:06 – 00:41:10:17
Lawrence Weinrauch
I think. First off, I say, don’t believe anything you hear.
00:41:10:19 – 00:41:11:17
Sarah Noll Wilson
00:41:11:20 – 00:41:17:12
Lawrence Weinrauch
And question everything because what works for somebody might not work for you.
00:41:17:14 – 00:41:18:08
Sarah Noll Wilson
00:41:18:10 – 00:41:38:25
Lawrence Weinrauch
You know, and don’t be afraid to ask the questions, because I think so many we get so stuck on, well I might ask the wrong question. Well, then own it. Yeah, maybe that was the stupidest thing I could have asked. But sorry, I’m just trying to be legitimate and, like, actually be curious.
00:41:38:28 – 00:41:41:00
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:41:41:03 – 00:41:46:14
Lawrence Weinrauch
And I think don’t be afraid to reach out because I think everybody, including myself, we internalize so much.
00:41:46:16 – 00:41:47:15
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:41:47:18 – 00:42:05:24
Lawrence Weinrauch
And we need to let that out and let that get that connection again, because you never know. It could save you, save somebody else. It could create a very nurturing, like, incredible relationship. And why why not have that.
00:42:05:26 – 00:42:24:21
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Lawrence, since this is, your first time on the show, you you get the question asked that I ask everyone. And that is, what was the conversation you’ve had with yourself or others or someone else that was transformative for you?
00:42:24:23 – 00:42:34:21
Lawrence Weinrauch
That’s a good question. I think just asking myself, like, basically, why? Why am I like this and why isn’t that good enough?
00:42:34:24 – 00:42:36:04
Sarah Noll Wilson
00:42:36:07 – 00:42:54:18
Lawrence Weinrauch
You know, I think that’s the gist of it because I know what you said about Nick and his art. Like I draw and paint too. And my dad used to say, well that’s you should do something else. Or you should go into commercial artistry like your cousin.
00:42:54:20 – 00:42:56:10
Sarah Noll Wilson
00:42:56:12 – 00:43:06:08
Lawrence Weinrauch
And it was just that being a boy in, like, a farming community going, well, I don’t want to be a farmer. I would like to do this, but I don’t have the support. So,
00:43:06:10 – 00:43:07:13
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:43:07:15 – 00:43:19:04
Lawrence Weinrauch
like but yeah. And then honestly, these conversations like change it because then it’s like it gets your it fills you up again kind of thing.
00:43:19:04 – 00:43:27:29
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah I love that. Why is what what why is how did you say it.
00:43:27:29 – 00:43:29:06
Sarah Noll Wilson
Why I,
00:43:29:08 – 00:43:30:19
Lawrence Weinrauch
Why am I like this?
00:43:30:21 – 00:43:31:24
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Why am I like this.
00:43:31:24 – 00:43:33:09
Lawrence Weinrauch
And why is it not good enough?
00:43:33:11 – 00:43:41:19
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah yeah yeah I think that is a very – god, especially that last part. Like why. Like why is that not good enough.
00:43:41:21 – 00:43:42:14
Lawrence Weinrauch
Yeah.
00:43:42:17 – 00:44:13:04
Sarah Noll Wilson
This is really provocative. Lawrence my friend, thank you so much for bringing your insights, your wisdom, your thoughtfulness, your gentleness. You’re like one of the calmest, calmest people I know. Like, I’m just going to yeah, we’re just going to have this conversation. But I’m so glad that we were able to make it work out for people who might be interested in connecting with you and having make maybe a table talk conversation with you, or learning more about your journey.
00:44:13:06 – 00:44:16:07
Sarah Noll Wilson
What’s the best way for people to connect with you?
00:44:16:09 – 00:44:18:07
Lawrence Weinrauch
Probably email’s the best.
00:44:18:09 – 00:44:19:24
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
00:44:19:26 – 00:44:25:18
Lawrence Weinrauch
Like, they can text and stuff, but I’m pretty horrible at social media and all that stuff.
00:44:25:21 – 00:44:37:14
Sarah Noll Wilson
So if you’re comfortable, we’ll list your email in the show notes. And then if people, if you want to reach out, just let them know where you heard. But otherwise, Lawrence, thank you so much for coming on the show and having this conversation with me.
00:44:37:16 – 00:44:40:16
Lawrence Weinrauch
Thanks for having me. It’s been awesome.
00:44:40:18 – 00:45:08:15
Sarah Noll Wilson
Our guest this week has been my dear friend and colleague from up north, Lawrence Weinrauch, and I always, I always love when I get to talk to somebody who’s got such a different energy than mine. Like there’s something so calming about talking to Lawrence. But there is a number of things that I wrote down, and the one that is really sticking with me is when do you own your self?
00:45:08:17 – 00:45:35:17
Sarah Noll Wilson
When do you own your life? And boy, that I don’t know that like makes me misty even thinking about and you know my friends, we really do love to hear from you. So let us know what came up for you. What resonated? What are you thinking about differently as a result? You can always send your thoughts to me via email at podcast at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com, or my DMs on social media where they’re always open and we would love to have your support of the show.
00:45:35:17 – 00:45:57:15
Sarah Noll Wilson
There’s two ways you can do it. The first is, if you haven’t already, please be sure to rate, review and subscribe to the show and your preferred podcast platform. The second way you can support is by becoming a patron. You can go to Patreon dot com slash conversations on conversations, where a monthly contribution that’s the same as getting coffee supports the team that makes the show possible.
00:45:57:18 – 00:46:21:09
Sarah Noll Wilson
And speaking of the team, let’s give them a little bit of love to our producer, Nick Wilson, to our sound editor Drew Noll, to our transcriptionist, Becky Reinert, to our marketing consultant Jessica Burdg, and the rest of the Snowco crew. I’m so fortunate to call you all colleagues and friends. And a final thank you to Lawrence Weinrauch for showing up as his beautiful, authentic self.
00:46:21:11 – 00:46:48:02
Sarah Noll Wilson
Well, that, my friends, concludes this week’s episode of conversations on conversations. As always, thank you for being here and being here for us and being here for yourself. And remember when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So till next time, please be sure to rest, rehydrate and resource yourself and I’ll see you again soon.
Sarah Noll Wilson is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. She aims to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching and Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health.