Episode 039: A Conversation on Inclusion Uncomplicated with Dr. Nika White

Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Dr. Nika White as they delve into a number of topics related to Dr. White’s new book, Inclusion Uncomplicated: A Transformative Guide To Simplify DEI.

About Our Guest

Dr. Nika White is a national authority and fearless advocate for diversity, equity, and inclusion. As an award-winning management and leadership consultant, keynote speaker, published author, and executive practitioner for DEI efforts across business, government, non-profit, and education, Dr. White helps organizations break barriers and integrate DEI into their business frameworks. Her work has led to designation by Forbes as a Top10 D&I Trailblazer. She is the founder of Nika White Consulting (NWC) where her firm works with organizations to identify and implement opportunities to embed DEI throughout its operations and culture. NWC is a diversity, equity, and inclusion boutique consulting firm with recognized authority on strategic diversity, intentional inclusion, and organizational effectiveness. Dr. White believes that “Diversity, Equity and Inclusion is not just a checkmark for good business, it’s a way to transform the world.” Over her 20+ years of leadership, Dr. White has worked with over 200 corporate, educational, government, and non-profit brands, managed over $200 million in business assets for her clients, and written two books on diversity, equity, and inclusion including, “The Intentional Inclusionist,®” and “Next Level Inclusionist: Transforming Your Work and Yourself for Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Success.” Dr. White’s third book, “Inclusion Uncomplicated: Essential Guide to Simplifying DEI” in partnership with ForbesBooks is scheduled to release fall of 2022. Dr. White has presented over 200 keynote speeches and presentations across the country on issues such as team engagement, organizational leadership, strategic diversity, race equity, and intentional inclusion. Dr. White’s talks bring a mixture of expertise, passion, vision, and authentic style to create holistic takeaways for audiences. The heart of Dr. White’s work addresses the ability to create transformative environments with intentionality around inclusion. She helps create professional spaces where people can collaborate through a lens of compassion, empathy, and understanding. Dr. Nika White is a national authority and fearless advocate for diversity, equity, and inclusion. As an award-winning management and leadership consultant, keynote speaker, published author, and executive practitioner for DEI efforts across business, government, non-profit, and education, Dr. White helps organizations break barriers and integrate DEI into their business frameworks. Her work has led to designation by Forbes as a Top10 D&I Trailblazer. She is the founder of Nika White Consulting (NWC) where her firm works with organizations to identify and implement opportunities to embed DEI throughout its operations and culture. NWC is a diversity, equity, and inclusion boutique consulting firm with recognized authority on strategic diversity, intentional inclusion, and organizational effectiveness. Dr. White believes that “Diversity, Equity and Inclusion is not just a checkmark for good business, it’s a way to transform the world.” Over her 20+ years of leadership, Dr. White has worked with over 200 corporate, educational, government, and non-profit brands, managed over $200 million in business assets for her clients, and written two books on diversity, equity, and inclusion including, “The Intentional Inclusionist,®” and “Next Level Inclusionist: Transforming Your Work and Yourself for Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Success.” Dr. White’s third book, “Inclusion Uncomplicated: Essential Guide to Simplifying DEI” in partnership with ForbesBooks is scheduled to release fall of 2022. Dr. White has presented over 200 keynote speeches and presentations across the country on issues such as team engagement, organizational leadership, strategic diversity, race equity, and intentional inclusion. Dr. White’s talks bring a mixture of expertise, passion, vision, and authentic style to create holistic takeaways for audiences. The heart of Dr. White’s work addresses the ability to create transformative environments with intentionality around inclusion. She helps create professional spaces where people can collaborate through a lens of compassion, empathy, and understanding.

 

Resources mentioned

• Dr. White’s previous appearance: https://sarahnollwilson.com/blog/episode-008-a-conversation-on-intentional-inclusion-with-dr-nika-white/
• http://www.nikawhitespeaks.com/
• http://www.nikawhite.com/
• Link to order Inclusion Uncomplicated on Amazon
• Intentional Conversations Vodcast
• Inclusion Uncomplicated Video Playlist

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• Find Nika: Website | Twitter | LinkedIn | Facebook | YouTube | Instagram

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations. Where each week we explore a topic to have more powerful conversations with ourselves and each other. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson and joining me for a repeat appearance is Dr. Nika White as we talk about her new book Inclusion Uncomplicated, an Essential Guide to Simplifying DEI. Dr. Nika White is a national authority and fearless advocate for diversity, equity and inclusion. As an award winning management and leadership consultant, keynote speaker, published author and executive practitioner for DEI efforts. She works with organizations across business government, nonprofit and Education. Dr. White helps organizations break barriers and integrate DEI into their business frameworks. She is the founder of Nika White Consulting NWC, where her firm works with organizations to identify and implement opportunities to embed DEI, throughout its organization and culture. She has worked with over 200 clients, manage over 200 million in business assets for her clients, and written two books three books now on diversity, equity inclusion, I am so excited to welcome Dr. Nika White to the show.

Welcome, welcome back to the show. You are our first repeat guest on Conversations on Conversations. And I’m so honored and thrilled to be with you during this really exciting time. So how are you doing? Dr. Nika White?

Dr. Nika White
Sarah, I am doing amazing. And I’m so glad to be reconnected with you and I’m honored. This is the first time hearing that actually I am the first one to be a return guest and so I’m really truly honored. Thank you kindly.

Sarah Noll Wilson
So for those of you, you know, who may – no, we’re so happy to have you, and that it’s an exciting time. And talk to us about why it’s such an exciting time.

Dr. Nika White
Well, it’s interesting, I believe, if I recall correctly, the last time that you were gracious enough to have me on, I mentioned the fact that I was in the early stages of kind of working on book number three. And now that book is available to the world, and I am super excited about it. It’s called Inclusion Uncomplicated, A Transformative Guide to Simplify DEI. And it’s in partnership with Forbes Books, who is my publisher, and I am I’m just thrilled. I’m literally holding it in my hands and I feel like it’s been a long time coming. But isn’t it exciting to actually get the product in your hands, to be able to feel and touch it and just like relish in the moment that yeah, this is done. And and I was a part of that. I did that. So pretty proud moment for me. But yes, Inclusion Uncomplicated.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it. And it’s a beautiful matte finish. I can’t wait to get get my hands on it.

Dr. Nika White
Thank You.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, because – okay, just so you know, full disclosure, when we’re recording this, it’s before it releases, but you know, but she was gracious enough to give me a sneak peek of the book. So I’ve had a chance to read it, but I don’t have the copy in my hand to hold up yet. Okay, so let’s just obviously, the, the conversation we need to have is really important. And I just I do want to take a moment to – congratulate you on this. I’m getting a little misty actually.

Dr. Nika White
Oh, thank you friend. I do appreciate that. I do appreciate that. Yeah, you know firsthand the the investment of time and energy and emotional capital that goes into writing a book. Making sure that your voice is just perfectly captured and that the impact of the book is is able to be felt the way that you designed it, you know, when we were in the creative writing phase. And so for you to congratulate me, and give me a moment to pause and kind of take it in I really do appreciate that that’s a gift and so thank you so much friend.

It’s it’s so it’s so exciting and you know, I think for for people who haven’t gone through the process, and this might not be true for everyone. But I know in talking with other people, it’s a very vulnerable process. Like you said, there’s a lot of emotional labor, there’s, there’s sort of an awareness of this is a snapshot in time and you know, like, (laughs) am I communicating what I want to communicate and and there is something really incredible – I love hearing you talk about like getting to hold it – that moment when you receive it and you go – there like talk to me about what that moment was like for you.

And it was it was surreal. You know, it was there was a slight delay and I know that many authors have experienced that because you know supply and demand sometimes can be unpredictable, but there was a slight delay. I got it a few days after I had been told I would receive it. But when they came, I did what everybody else does. Immediately just grab the scissors, tore open the box and literally it was it was more, I’m gonna reenact this for you, it was more of like, just holding it, I didn’t even open it for a while I just held it and just kind of ran my hand around the cover. And I think I’ve probably hugged it a couple of times – that I just kind of looked at it, and I went to the back. And yeah, I actually started flipping through it and and I’ll tell you, there were moments where I would catch a certain paragraph and I you know, when you write the book, you know all the content of the book, but you still kind of forget certain moments. Exactly right. And so as I started reading it again, I was like, I am super excited to get this into the hands of others. And so I am I am so ready to hear what people think, how people are being impacted, how people are being challenged, how people are being stretched, how people are being informed and equipped. I mean this really is to serve as a guide, you know, you know, the subtitle is A Transformative Guide. And so I see people, you know, dogearing the pages, writing in the, in the margins, and you know, keeping it on their desk as a tool and a resource that they can refer back to time and time. And so this has definitely been a labor of love. But it’s also been a labor of of need. I have been holding some information that I just felt was really important to compile into one source. And so I’m so grateful that this platform opportunity presented itself. And I’m grateful to Forbes Books for seeing seeing something in my voice that they also wanted to support and get behind. And so I yeah, I’m grateful to be in conversation with you today to delve a little bit deeper into the book. But yeah, it was a great experience to do that unboxing exercise.

And I can tell it’s a sexy matte finish. I’m a big fan of the matte, there is something about the matte finish that feels so good.

So I have to tell you. I am, you know, my background is marketing communications. I think you and I talked about that before. And so branding is really important for me, you know, one of the things that often people will comment on is, is my branding work, and I have a terrific marketing communications partner. But the design of the book was something that I cared deeply about, you know, I wanted it to be in my brand colors, although the book is not necessarily a product of NWC, which is my consulting firm, but NWC does this work and so the way in which I show up to this work, it shows up within the organization. But I was – we went through several rounds before I landed on a design that I felt like, Yes! And this is it. And I love the fact that I’m telling a little bit about the book, but there’s a portion in the back, a little signature portion that’s printed in color. And it has the chapter summaries. And I just I just love it. I do. Now I have to share though, and I am hoping I’m not alone, –

Sarah Noll Wilson
I love this.

Dr. Nika White
even though I love it and even though I have taken a moment to reacquaint myself with certain content that made its way into the book. I also have found some portions that I’m like, well if I were writing it today –

Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) Yep.

Dr. Nika White
That I would have added this and so that’s all a part of it, I’m sure. But um, yeah, and that’s the reason why people will come up with like a second edition, right? So anyway, I’m gonna relish in the moment right now, though. Please tell me I’m not alone. Am I not?

Sarah Noll Wilson
No, no, no, no, you’re not. Um, (chuckles) I love this so much. I just love the opportunity to connect with you in this way. I mean, I, like my cheeks hurt so much from like, I don’t know, I just I love it so much.

Dr. Nika White
(laughs)

Sarah Noll Wilson
No, I, you know, my, my mentor and good friend, Dr. Cris Wildermuth. One of the things she said years ago that stuck with me was, she said, you know, authors aren’t necessarily smarter. They just finish it. And they realize and accept that it’s actually never done.

Dr. Nika White
Yes.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And it is and it’s hard. And then when you go to do the, you know, if you’re doing, you know, the audiobook recording of it, and you start reading and you’re like, oh, okay, you know, I mean, and, and it’s interesting because, yeah, either because of your experience because I mean I definitely experienced that of man there’s a – there’s there’s – you know, I recognize like in my work like there’s some actually really big gaps because of my lived experience being a you know, Midwest white woman working with largely white audiences that there’s there’s a limitation to the content and being okay and not being okay, but accepting that this is where it is. This is what I’ve learned since then. How do you bring that into it and how do you invite people and I love that you’ve already done and that of I want to hear what resonates for people and what challenge them and what stretched them, and where might there be, you know, opportunities and, and then keep that list of, – you know, because you’ll obviously continue, but it’s, I don’t think I don’t know that –

You’re never done.

You’re never done.

Dr. Nika White
I love hearing the words of wisdom from your mentor with me because that resonates deeply. Yes. And I appreciate that in many ways, especially because when we think about this work of diversity, equity and inclusion and belonging, we often say there’s no destination, we are – we should constantly be filling ourselves with knowledge, and you know, becoming more culturally intelligent, so that, you know, we can apply that information to how in which we are interacting and helping to advocate, you know, for others. And so, you know, and that you’re not exonerated from that just because you are an DEI practitioner, Lane, and even more so, and continue that learning journey. And so, yes, even days now, after I’ve written this book, you know, there, I’m sure there’s a ton of things that I will encounter, as I am like on the book tour and sharing some of the content from the book with others that will find its way into those conversations that may not be reflected in the book. But that’s not a bad thing.

Sarah Noll Wilson
No, no, and it’s I mean, that’s one of the points you make, over and over and over is expect non closure, expect that things are going to shift and evolve and how do you, you know, that idea that there’s not a destination. I have to, I have to say, so for people who are listening and going to buy the book, it, it’s really beautifully laid out and designed, the content is great and I appreciated how you, you cover a lot. And it’s it is a really, it’s a really nice read, especially for folks who may not be as experienced or knowledgeable, which I’m curious to hear what like who is your audience as you’re writing this. But as, and I think you and I maybe I talked about this when I was on your show, but something that I was trying to be intentional with my book was designing it for more neurotypical or neurodiverse brain. And one of the things that I appreciated about your design was the fact that you had a lot of visuals, you had a lot of – I loved the visual summaries at the end, you know, capturing the key ideas. You know, just how you use different spacing and visual cues made it a really easy read for somebody who sometimes struggles to get through a book. So I wanted to just name and you know, and I don’t know if that was intentional on your part?

Dr. Nika White
It was. It was.

Sarah Noll Wilson
But I’m curious to know.

Dr. Nika White
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I thought so.

Dr. Nika White
Yeah. You know, this about me, my background is marketing communications and so again, I care deeply about the presentation, and the look and feel of the product. And I think that as a DEI practitioner, we want to make sure that we are approaching an exercise by you know, publishing a book with all of those different types of audiences in mind, you know, and so I write often about neurodiversity and how people learn in different ways. And so the print is actually a little larger than most traditional books.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I noticed that.

Dr. Nika White
Yep. And there’s a lot of call outs, you know, I do have this chapter summaries and so people can go back and, and reference some of the more salient points that were presented in each chapter. And so it really is designed, as I mentioned, to be a tool, something that people will revisit and come back to. And I – my hope is that this will attract a pretty broad audience. I mean, I know that we can’t be all things to all people when we’re really designing something. But just generally speaking, as I was thinking about the audience, I knew that I wanted this to have value to individuals that could be a little bit further along in their journey, but they just really need some additional guidance and support to know how do I go to the next level, as well as those individuals who have not yet fully engaged and so part of what the book offers is a chapter actually in the beginning and it deals with who this book is for to your point. And it also talks about different personas, right.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I love that.

Dr. Nika White
Different types of people that are you know, somehow associated, affiliated, maybe trying to figure out where they want to be within you know, this broad work of DEIB. And you know, some examples would be like active opposition, passive unaware, passive awareness.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay, wait, I’m gonna do this. Let’s – I want to slow down because this is one of the things I wanted to spend – is that okay?

Dr. Nika White
Absolutely.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I wanted to spend some time on this because I think that that, you know, when I, when I got the opportunity to read the first chapter and then having the first couple of chapters, and then now getting the chance to read the whole thing, that was the section I really appreciated as a point of reflection, and obviously, that takes some honest reflection of where you’re at. And you do and so I so the reason I want to slow it down, because I think that this is a really – I just want to hear you speak more to it, and there’s so much value in us being able to identify, so where are we on the journey? Which is, is different than where we think we are? You know, that’s something that, that that there are times when, you know, and we’re going to just have a real conversation. There are times when I think I’m further along on my journey, because I’m further along than where I was before.

Dr. Nika White
Sure.

Sarah Noll Wilson
But I’m still not necessarily maybe where I could be, where I hope to be. Right? And so sometimes like, well, no, I’m actually here and then when you actually reflect on, you know, the where you could be? And what does that actually look like in practice to be a really active, courageous ally? Like, oh, I’m not actually as far along. So let’s break down the five.

Dr. Nika White
Okay. I would love to do that.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And talk through them.

Dr. Nika White
I would love to do that. I wanna, I want to start with really just reflecting a little bit further on what you just shared. What I love about your vulnerability and talking about your story, as you think about where am I on this journey, it is all about competing against yourself or benchmarking against yourself. And one of the things that I felt was really critical for this book is that we need to make sure that not only are we doing those critical reflections for ourselves, which you do beautifully, but most people, they will assess that question based upon where they are against someone else. And what I want people to really lean into is that there’s – we’re not competing against anyone but ourselves in terms of just, am I becoming better than I was the day before, right. And I think that’s so important to amplify because, you know, in chapter one, when I do introduce the personas, it’s right on the heels of talking about identifying mental models. And it’s where I really help the audience to understand that everyone’s lens, and their point in which they are entering, you know, the conversation, the proverbial conversation of DEI is vastly different. And so we have to take that in mind, because I think that has a lot to do with, it should have a lot to do with the way in which we try to engage people and bring them along.

If you try to bring someone to point Z, when they haven’t even scratched the surface of A to K, then it’s going to be hard for them to really find their place, and to get comfortable to where they’re going to sustain that level of engagement and curiosity. And so I think that the mental models piece is very critical. So to your question, I’ll just talk briefly about the five personas. The first is Active Opposition, and these are individuals who are deeply rooted in their choice to be a strong opponent of DEI. And it’s important to recognize that. These are individuals who quite honestly, maybe their minds cannot be changed, and who are committed to disrupting the work of DEI. I want to pause there for a second and say this book is not for those individuals. In fact, part of my philosophy with the work that I do, and I’m not to say, I’m not saying that this is necessarily the approach that every practitioner in this space should take, but for me, I realize that that’s not my audience. That’s not who I feel like I have been equipped with the skill sets and the ability to reach nor do I desire that, It is, it is great emotional capital that has to be spent to even attempt to see if you can move somebody that’s in a place of just deeply rooted opposition. That’s not my audience.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Well, and I remember. I remember – sorry, real quickly, but I remember when we had our conversation last year, that was something that stood out. When you’re like, I don’t, that’s not who I’m going after. And I remember you saying, the quiet person in the back who’s listening but unsure. That’s that’s who I’m who I’m going for. And, and I and again, that was one of the things I appreciated in your writing was, you also spoke to, obviously, this is complex, it’s layered. There’s not one solution to it, and I appreciate it, where you named – this is where even DEI practitioners disagree. Like do we force people along? Do we meet them where they are? If we’re meeting them where they are? How are we prioritizing white comfort, dominant culture comfort and wrestling with that, that there’s not one answer to that it’s, you know, figuring out what’s right. So that was sorry, as you were talking that was coming up. So please, please continue.

Dr. Nika White
No, I’m glad you reminded me of that and you’re right, I was very clear from the beginning. And even throughout the writing process, and I’m even clearer about this, and how I show up to this work from a consulting perspective. I mean, I truly believe that the population of people that at their core, they really do care about getting this right and wanting to engage in a way that really leads towards sustainable change. I think that population is great enough to where I have personally made the decision that I’m not going after the naysayers and I don’t mean naysayers to where, you know, there’s some things that they question I’m talking about those that are again, in deep opposition, no matter what you do, you’re not going to change their minds, right. And I would far rather spend my time and energy on those that I believe I have the ability to help shift. And there’s a likelihood of behavioral change that aligns more with again, the value sets and the opportunities that diversity, equity and inclusion bring. And so I stick by that.

The second persona is Passive Unaware. And as you can imagine, just by that labeling, these are people who are unaware, and they cannot engage in the work of DEI, simply because they’re unaware, they’re uninformed. And so they can be identified by their lack of engagement in the conversations, by their inability to recognize the severity of the problems that loom concerning equity, and equality. And I do believe that with the proper guidance, the proper resources, the proper influencers in those individuals lives, whether it’s through resources or through, you know, people, that there’s an opportunity to get them engaged. So that’s Passive Unaware.

The next is Passive Awareness. And it’s, as you can imagine the opposite. But passive aware individuals are the ones who can appreciate that attention is being given to the work of DEI, right? They’re like, “Yes, I’m so glad I’m with an organization that cares deeply about DEI. I’m glad we have a chief diversity officer, I’m glad that we have a statement and we’re doing things that’s impactful, we’re changing systems and minds.” But the problem is, is that they see it as the responsibility of someone else. So they aren’t owning the accountability for it and I truly believe this work belongs to all of us. So there’s a message for those individuals as well.

And then thirdly, Active Awareness. When we think about being actively aware, from a mental model perspective, these are the ones who know that this work is necessary. And they are actively working to advance it. Maybe these are practitioners, maybe these are ones who are leading this work within their respective organizations. Maybe they’re just human rights activists or social justice workers. And so they’re regularly doing the work, but they also need support to help bring others along. Right? And so that is the audience that this book also appeals to.

And then the last one is Overactive Awareness. And I think this is so important to also amplify, because while maybe at the core of just hearing that labeling, it may lead some to believe, okay, well, those are people that are just really, really sold out by any means necessary. But the challenge is, is that sometimes, if we’re overactive in our awareness, it can show up as council culture, because we’re frustrated that maybe others are not where we perceive they should be. And I am not one that really believes in the council culture, I think that we need all of us being a part of this of this work, and this conversation and engaging in a way that helps us to rise higher. And so those are the individuals that this book is for. And I wanted to outline that early on, so that people could then begin to identify and at the end of that chapter, there’s some critical reflection. –

Sarah Noll Wilson
I love those reflection questions.

Dr. Nika White
Where are you with respect to all those personas? And what do you feel like you need to do or spend some time further reflecting on if you are deciding that you want to continue this learning journey to make sure that you are at the right posture to be open to do so?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, that’s, you know, that’s one of the things I really appreciated about the book was those really pointed reflection questions at the end. You know, and when I when I was reading through those, again, this is where I didn’t highlight how many times you said it, but it was courage over comfort, right? I mean, quite a number of times. You write that –

Dr. Nika White
An entire chapter. Yeah,

Sarah Noll Wilson
I mean, there’s multiple points where it’s like, oh, right – and, and even in the act of reflecting on this is how to be courageous in that moment to go where am I really? And and in what situations, you know, when I – I don’t know if this is helpful, I also want to I’m just gonna like name this, I also want to make sure I’m not like centering on my experience, because I’m aware that that’s something us white women do so I just want to name that. But I also just want to honor the impact that your book had and the way that it helped me process through it as well was realizing that there are times where I’m moving down a few different ones. And, you know, and not necessarily like, oh, I am this, oh, I am, you know, passive awareness. But it’s like, oh, there are definitely times when I’m passively unaware. Or there are times when I am very much passive awareness. And then there’s little moments that are that I, you know, active awareness and, and dancing between those that that was definitely I think that’s, that was such a powerful framing, to invite people to get really courageously curious. As you know, that’s definitely like my thing about –

Dr. Nika White
Yep.

Sarah Noll Wilson
But where are you really, and I, and I appreciate that that point you made about, you know, being in competition, of just like, how are we continuing to be better than we were before? Yes. are we continuing to move forward? And, and and recognizing that, you know, recognizing when you’re like, oh, I’ve been passively unaware.

Dr. Nika White
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
For longer than I realized.

Dr. Nika White
I love the revelation, Sarah, of the mental models and those personas, how they can show up differently based upon the circumstances, right, and how we will evolve and grow and learn. And so that’s a really a really good point that I hope people will keep in mind as they are engaged in this book. And, you know, I also want to comment on the competition thing again, I hear this so much. And so I think I am a bit over sensitized to it, because we do a lot of assessments at NWC. And when we do these deep dive assessments, it is pretty recurring, that our client partners will ask, “Well, how did we do?” And really what they’re looking for is a score or a grade. And it’s not a grade of how you did independently. But how do we do maybe comparatively speaking to others that you’ve done assessments for, to others who are in this industry. And so we have this, this going in position with our clients where we go ahead and just, you know, level set around, this is how we approach benchmarking. You are benchmarking against your own selves, that is the best way to do it, because you want to make sure that you are improving. If you’re not at 100%, then there’s still opportunity for growth and refinement. So don’t be so concerned about what others are doing, unless you’re using that information to really just modify, tweak and inform what you should be doing. Right. But I’m – so I appreciate that. And I think the same applies to individuals when they’re also on their own personal journey. Well, I’m not as bad as so and so. Okay, but what does that really mean, though? Why does that matter? What can you do better? You know? Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, what I mean, what are you trying? (laughs) I’m smiling a little bit, because when, you know, we do assessments, maybe around different different topics. It’s always like, so how do we compare? And it’s, as you’re saying that – I really. Yeah, I really appreciate that, you know, you’re benchmarking against yourself, and, and if the goal, again, here’s another beautiful opportunity to get curious, is it the goal for us to feel like we did enough? Right. And that’s something you explore too of the activity versus impact or making it so transactional, that it’s an event based instead of an ongoing? You know, because I can definitely see it because one of the questions that I was reflecting on in preparation for this was what are those organizations who you feel like, are making strides? What are they doing differently? You know, like that point of comparison, I think could be valuable, just because sometimes we don’t even know what we don’t know of what it can look like. Because again, –

Dr. Nika White
Oh absolutely. Absolutely. But to me, that’s not benchmarking, that is more of, you know, just pulling together data of example sets, basically. And that’s what we say that’s kind of the way in which we approach what you’re probably referring to as benchmarking. This is what I would, we would say to our client partners. And so I think that is critical. I find it very appropriate for people to be exposed to case studies and how other organizations have navigated maybe similar type challenges, so that they can, you know, pull out what’s relevant to them, because it’s, you know, it’s very nuanced. This work is not going to look the same across every organization. That’s just not, it’s not possible. The other thing too, that I think it’s important to spend some time on in our conversation is really going back to this courage piece. Because the courage piece was really the impetus in many ways of why book number three came into existence. What I found, in my time as a practitioner in this work is that one of the main barriers that kept a lot of organizations and leaders and organizations who were charged with this work, from really feeling compelled and equipped to, to create sustainable change was how mystical, all the unknowns – how daunting this work, felt, it just felt so complex. And we know that when something feels really, really hard to us, there’s automatically a disadvantage that can overcome us if we aren’t careful. And so for me, I wanted to try to address that piece of it. So that’s where the whole notion of let’s unravel the knot, right? I just, you know, imagine this big – and I remember having a conversation with someone, and I’m like, what are you – after we’ve had some, you know, some conversations, and I was really presenting some points. And I could tell they were grappling with it. And I said, what’s coming up for you just socialize with me? What are you thinking? What are you perceiving? And a person just very exasperated, said, I just feel so overwhelmed. This is just so hard. I feel like we just can’t win. I just feel so is it even possible? This is just so complex, and almost like throwing up the hands, right? I was like, okay, Nika, what do you do with this? And I’ve realized that even before I could continue to attempt to successfully guide them and consult them and help them navigate a path of changing systems, policies, procedures, while at the same time because you have to do them in parallel, changing mindsets, and equipping people with knowledge and information and application of what to do with now, this knowledge that they’re being exposed to, that I had to help them get into their minds that while this work, may seem complex, there is a way for us to break this down and to simplify it. And so I feel like it’s important to socialize that because that’s really the impetus of why Inclusion Uncomplicated came to be. And what I’m also finding important to share is that and people get the book and they read the book, they will, they will clearly know that my position is not that DEI is not hard, because there’s a lot of really hard aspects of it. But it doesn’t have to be to the point to where we remain on the sidelines, or we remain complicit if we’re able to engage in this work in a way where we feel like we are being met, where we are. I’m not going to leave you there. That would be a disservice to you and to the world. But to help people along to unravel the knots. Right? So that it becomes uncomplicated. And so that’s, that’s what I’m hoping this book will do for a lot of people.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You, you just spoke to one of my favorite lines, which is, “I believe in meeting people where they are but not content to leave them there.” Was so powerful it was. And again, and that’s that’s a perspective, that’s how you show up with this work. There was something that was really resonant for me. I have to tell you, the whole the whole untangling of the knot.

Dr. Nika White
(chuckles)

Sarah Noll Wilson
The – what. So a lot of the work that that we do, perhaps in like different spaces is is somewhat similar in the sense of how do we see the comp – like how do we honor the complexity? How do we see it for the different parts? How do we – how do we understand that how we need to approach this complexity is different. And so the analogy was such – I mean, it was a song, it was a song after my own heart from the standpoint of one of the ways that we talked about when we’re dealing with adaptive challenges, which is exactly what you’re, again, I think this is – I think diversity, equity, inclusion is the biggest adaptive challenge that we face because there is there is layers and complexity and like you said, there are technical components we need to change, and there’s mindsets and challenging values and challenging beliefs. And the analogy I’ll use is like, tangled up ball of Christmas lights, and we just have to start tugging. So when I saw it, I was like, oh, god, yes, you know. –

Dr. Nika White
You have to start someplace and so so I love that analogy because that feels really complex. And some people are like, I’m just gonna throw this away, I’m not even gonna touch it with a ten foot pole.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, right.

Dr. Nika White
But that’s one response. But is it the best response? No, let’s face our fears. Let’s face the discomfort and let’s just take one part of it at a time and start to kind of untangle it. And then after a while, we’ll we’ll see that we’re making progress. And that’s what this is about progress and not perfection overnight, incremental change is okay. In fact, it’s smart, it’s healthy, because it allows us to not get frustrated too early in a process, right. And so that big ball of yarn, that was the visual that I spoke of, and that I saw in my head, as I go back to the story I just shared of talking with this client partner who was just defeated.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.

Dr. Nika White
And I thought Nika, what can you do? What can you do? At that moment, it wasn’t about trying to get you to believe that DEI is important, you know that. You’re just stuck because you don’t want to do the wrong thing. You don’t know exactly what to do. So much complexity around it, right. But I don’t, I don’t want that to be part of the hindrance to keep us from moving forward. So we have to first and foremost believe that we in our organizations in our society, our world is deserving of equity, inclusion, and belonging and accessibility for everyone. And if once we believe that, no matter how daunting it is, we need to give ourselves a pep talk if we need to, but we need to make sure that we’re committing to the process. And I believe that part of committing to a process is to have it to be attainable, to feel attainable, to feel not so complex, to feel like we can simplify it. That’s not to say this work is simple. But I think that there are some really tangible things and ways in which we can take it one bite at a time, if we find ourselves in that predicament of feeling like, I don’t even want to take the first step because this just feels like it’s impossible.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, well, one of the things that’s coming up for me hearing you talk about this, in the connection that I’m making is that the work – let’s see if I can articulate this, I’ll just say and we’ll clean it up. But you know, everything that you’re talking about that it’s progress, not perfection, right, that there’s this, you know, politeness that can get in our way and your speaking to very white dominant culture norms. And, and the connection that I’m making is that, you know, the act of even how we navigate, how we engage, how we move forward in progress is also a way for us to build up a muscle of showing up differently, of pushing against norms that are, you know, like our in our DNA, you know, I mean, it’s like the polite, nice midwest, white woman, there are times where it’s like, oh, my god, how do I just get this out of my system a little bit? Because it’s so, it’s the air that we breathe and hearing you, as you were talking about it is, like, it’s, it’s like progress on multiple layers, right, as we engage with this work, is that was just what was coming up for me hearing you talk in the language you are using.

Dr. Nika White
Yeah, no, you’re right. And I think that when we are on our learning journeys, we often have to peel back the layers and really identify, okay, what am I what am I not seeing here? What am I not, you know, curious enough about to help us – think just just better engage with the information in terms of how it needs to apply to our way of thinking, our way of being and the influence that we have in the spaces that we show up. So, so I appreciate that you said that there’s so much so many layers to this and I’m just grateful that there are individuals like you and so many others who are willing to to do some of the hard work just to help it become a little bit more manageable and digestible for others. And that that was my point. I don’t I don’t pretend to have all the answers around this. But I do believe that I have enough knowledge and wherewithal to put together a tool that can help people unravel the knots, unravel the knots.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You – one of the things that I think is so powerful about how you lay out this book is one not only do you give, you know you explore some really common language or frameworks, right and talking about it, but again, you invite people to ask some tough questions, you also share some really tangible practices of like, here’s things you can say, for those of you and, and one of the questions that I you know, a couple of different points that I had had captured was, you know, the, the powerful question of am I really doing this activity to help others or am I doing this to position myself or my organization in a certain light that will gain me benefit. And what a beautiful again, courageous, curious question and I love the question before of, you know, what am I not curious enough about because I think that that is a trap we can fall into is thinking we know, thinking we understand, thinking we, you know, have have a sense of the realities of it. And that gets in our way instead of going god, what else don’t I know? And not not from a place of shaming, but just from a place of, you know – so, on that hand, but then, but I, you know, you, you talk about, you know, that you had a section of talking about the difference between an obligation versus an opportunity. And I’d love to just pause there a little bit to from the standpoint of ask, asking yourself some of these hard questions. You know, especially those of us who are part of the dominant culture, like that’s part of the work is that that internal and external, so I’d love to just hear what comes up for you.

Dr. Nika White
That part of the book was really instrumental for me, in terms of my my influence, and consulting work, because what I noticed is that many organizations were coming to us to do the work, which, you know, on the surface, yes, that’s great. We want everybody to do the work, right. But they were doing the work, I felt for not the right reasons. And when I say not the right reasons, when we are obligated to something, it certainly helps us to remain devoted to it, because we don’t want to have to experience the consequences or the repercussions of not doing it. And that’s when it feels like a burden to us. And I would much rather people to not approach this work as a burden, right, because we’re talking about people. Don’t approach humans as them being a burden. Let’s approach this as what are the opportunities and the strengths that we really can lean into, that’s going to get us excited, it’s going to make us want to have the desire to do this work, not because we have to or, you know, or in spite of, there’s a difference between doing the work in spite of versus doing it because we really do believe that there’s great value and opportunity and strength in it. And so that was really important to highlight.

Something else, Sarah, that I think maybe some people in your audience may not be aware of but Inclusion Uncomplicated the name itself, it’s not just entirely new with the release of this book. For the past three years, I have been putting out short quick videos called Inclusion, Uncomplicated Simplify DEI, and it was all to help provide those bite sized pieces of information so that people could have a resource. And I, you know, we release this content, this video series, new content every week. And so they’re no more than like two minute clips. And I thought, you know, this seems to be very valuable, we were getting a good bit of engagement in terms of the the playlist and subscriptions and lots of comments when we would share it out. And so what this has also helped me to realize is that we need different ways of reaching people. I think that sometimes we always relegate the learning to be more of lecture style training, I don’t even use the word training at NWC. We prefer learning experiences, because it’s not just a one and done, a training sounds like a very singular event or destination and that’s not the case, we really need to going back to the mental models commentary that I shared earlier, we need to have a strategy that allows us to look across multiple modalities, ways and approaches of reaching people. And so I share that because Inclusion Uncomplicated video series is also you know, a large part of what, you know, really created the desire for me to also want to write this book as a step, a step forward.

Sarah Noll Wilson
When you’re speaking to – and we talked about this a little bit beforehand. So let’s talk about the New York Times article. I don’t remember the I don’t remember the name. But I think I think the timing of it in this conversation, because, you know, we’ve I’ve had a few people send my way and like, what do you think about this? Right, and it wasn’t – so just to be clear, it was an opinion piece whose opinion –

Dr. Nika White
It was, it was very much an opinion piece.

Sarah Noll Wilson
About how, you know, some of the traditional ways of diversity, equity and inclusion efforts aren’t moving the needle and potentially could do harm. I definitely had thoughts and reactions to it of – my first thought was, was it that the work isn’t moving the needle or is it that people are unwilling to move the needle? But to your point, and you know, and you cover this in your book is it can’t just be an event. This is not a box to check and if that’s how you – and we know behavior change and value exploration and exploring, you know, literally a history of systemic oppression isn’t something that’s going to be untangled in a two hour session. So I’m curious to just get your thoughts in response to that.

Dr. Nika White
Yeah, that New York Times article, as you pointed out, certainly it was an opinion piece. And I’m glad that we’re amplifying that because it, it was an opinion, and not necessarily an opinion that I would say is really popular among a lot of the practitioners that I’m in close communication with. I think that it was very short sighted, and that it presented the totality of diversity training as looking one way. And there is a way to do diversity, learning experiences, that can help move the needle in concert with also other organizational efforts, like dealing with systems, policies, procedures, and culture. I mean, you can certainly have some behaviors that are placed, and in conversations and learning experiences that you expose people to, but if the system is not designed to where people can really operate with that mindset, then it’s not going to work. So it is a both and, and so my challenge with the article was I don’t feel like it brought that really important aspect aspects to the floor. You know, it talks a good bit about how many white men in particular feel guilted, shamed and blamed to the point to where it creates more harm, you know, for them, then they’re like this not really a place for me. And you know, and I’m in my book I talk about I don’t believe in guilting, shaming and blaming, but I do believe that we have to be really careful when, even in opinion piece, to send a message that that broadly can cause a population of individuals to negate the work itself, right. Or to see it as having an adverse effect. I think that we all know that there certainly there could be harm, if it’s not done well and it’s done right. I just want us to be sure that we aren’t amplifying the negativity that, you know, can occur and does occur across all different industries and disciplines, right? Because I believe that that that gives people too much license sometimes, especially those who are already not fully convinced to then say, okay, well, I told you so. You know, and that does not help us. And so, yeah, so sometimes that question, maybe the motives and the intents of those who write such opinion pieces, you know, especially if I don’t feel like it’s completely balanced. But yeah, that’s just – again, one opinion against another.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It is and that’s, that’s part of that’s part of getting curious. Right. And that’s part of like, you know, how is this reinforcing the beliefs I have, and how was it challenging it? And, and exactly, to your point, and I think that was a point that, at the end of the article was like, actually, what can help move the needle is the systems work, I mean, it was, it was a small section of it, but they got to that. And so and so, I mean, it was the last paragraph, but, but that’s something that, you know, when I think about when I think about the opportunities I’ve had to be really directly involved with the work that my like my colleague Gilmara does with organizations where the needle has moved, is when it is the combination exactly like you’re talking about. It’s the both and – it’s the system, because and I loved how you said, and I didn’t quite capture it exactly. But when you’re saying that, if the contain – you know – I think of it as a container –

Dr. Nika White
Yes!

Sarah Noll Wilson
If the container hasn’t changed and we’re trying to change behaviors or beliefs, that that’s always going to be in conflict and will almost like suffocate any little sparks that come up.

Dr. Nika White
Totally.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And so you have to look at it – and so, so you have worked with hundreds of organizations. You have been able to support them on their journey. What are some of the components and again, some of this you talk about in your book of like, how important assessments are how important it is that you get a real honest view of where are you currently and I just want to make one like point as a white person doing this work how do we right size our discomfort?

Dr. Nika White
Yeah.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, that’s that’s a concept that like, you know, we’ll use sometimes of like, how do we right size the problem and making sure like how do I right size the discomfort I’m feeling compared to the harm that’s actually happening to other people. So I don’t that was just something that was coming up for me but is, you know, I do want to go back to my original question, which is, you know, what, what are some of those strategies, mindsets, practices that you have seen, because again, your approach isn’t a one and done, you are walking alongside individuals and organizations as they are on this journey, right? And helping them understand it’s a journey. So what are some of the things that you found to be just most of effective? I don’t want to say right, because there isn’t a right, but just that have been really powerful?

Dr. Nika White
So one would be, and I’m probably making up a word here, but uh, the stick-to-itness effect, right? I think that so many organizations, they abandon the process too prematurely because they don’t see results as quickly as they would like. And probably the reason they don’t see results as quickly as they would like is maybe they were misguided to start, right. And they just felt like, well, there’s let me do this, this and this. And then yeah, now we’re, we have arrived. So the stick-to-itness is really important. I think the other thing is this piece about accountability, you know, what gets measured and tracked gets done, but it doesn’t just end there. And then where you hold people accountable, they will deliver, but you need both of those you need you need metrics. But then you also need accountability and accountability is something that has to be shared across the organization, it is not just something that is is should be the sole responsibility of the Chief Diversity Officer, or even the C suite leaders, they need to certainly be the main influencers, as key stakeholders in the organization to be able to help inform the general, you know, associate body of what does this look like for us. What are those behaviors that are expected based upon this type of guiding principle or philosophy that we are governing ourselves by, here are the norms. And then there needs to be some level of accountability across everyone to help try to maintain them. And so that can look like a variety of things. But I think that until we get to a place to where we can be comfortable, knowing that it’s okay to have some accountability mechanisms in place assigned to this work, that we’re going to be able to move the needle. I don’t know why organizations are so afraid sometimes of the accountability piece? I guess it’s because – I think it goes back to my theory, it goes back to like, yeah, that sounds good, in theory, but in practice, hmm, we’re gonna lose our whole workforce. Well, okay. But what does that gaining you though, by having a workforce that’s continuing to not allow you to be able to be on the cutting edge of, of what needs to happen in the future to attract the best talent, retain the best talent, and I mean, you know, so we have to help them connect the dots to the application of what that looks like, at the individual level, within an organization. I often say that you don’t have to have a certain position, or power by, you know, title or position in order to be able to influence this work. And that’s what I mean by I think that we need to have shared accountability across the organization, but that does start with the, you know, the leadership being willing to first model and then to uphold whatever those norms and those value sets are so that others can lean into it and realize that yes, I do need to be very much considering how can I align with these principles?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s such a common trap, you know, related to this work. Related to really any culture work, that it often gets relegated to, you know, whether it’s the Diversity, Equity, Inclusion person, whether it’s the HR person, and you know, and I appreciate it, that you’re naming that. I mean, we’re all we’re all on the hook to make this change. We’re all in the – we all create the culture we’re in. We all are playing a role in what that culture looks like, some people have more influence, you know, to the point you made, executive level, senior leaders and why that’s why that’s so important. And yeah, and it goes back to that, that a little bit of it’s an endurance game, right?

Dr. Nika White
Stick-to-itness! Yes! Absolutely.

Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s interesting thing about the metrics, because you were saying earlier, when people were like, how did we compare? And, and even that, that’s a shift that that is a shift from how we run business. It’s a shift from how we, you know, like, even as individuals, it’s just, it’s gonna be messy at times, it’s gonna be unclear at times, you’re gonna mess up sometimes, like, that’s just an inevitable part of –

Dr. Nika White
Oh, absolutely.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Doing this work and just being in relationship with humans is like, you’re gonna mess up like it’s not, it’s not if, it’s when and that that, that endurance, you know that you’re speaking to it, it’s not the norm. It’s not.

Dr. Nika White
Yeah, thank you for giving me a word. The stick-to-itness is not nearly as as articulate as the endurance. So thank you. But yes, that’s precisely it. You know, are we willing to endure what this process entails because there are going to be hurdles and obstacles, probably, you know, every few miles. Then we’re gonna see a guidepost, it’s going to put us on the right direction, and we’re going to maybe be rolling with the rhythm. But then yeah, if there are going to be other issues that will arise, because we are a society that is made up of people. And we’re all different, and we all have different needs. And so there’s always going to be an opportunity for us to level up. And so the upskilling around how to do that most effectively to be able to endure is what’s going to help separate those who are really deeply committed, not just in rhetoric, but in deed, to really seeing the full maturation of the possibilities of diversity, equity and inclusion within their respective organizations.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I mean, everything you just described as – I couldn’t help but go, what a gift we would give ourselves to be able to, to, again, build up our capacity to realize like, yep, we’re building up our capacity to navigate something complex. We’re building up our capacity to repair and to, –

Dr. Nika White
Exactly.

Sarah Noll Wilson
To get curious and to own and to, you know, again, because it’s, that’s just a natural part, you know, and most importantly, in creating a space in a world that’s safe for everyone. Right?

Dr. Nika White
Everyone – leave no one behind. That’s part of one of the lines that I repeat in the book, leave no one behind. Yeah, I”m right there with you friend.

Sarah Noll Wilson
We, we are coming up on our time. I want to, I want to just give a moment. Is there anything like what what did we not cover that you wanted to make sure? And also, this doesn’t have to be our last conversation. I mean, we’ve had you on twice.

Dr. Nika White
Well, I love the fact that you invited me back, I do appreciate that. We’ve covered a lot of ground, as you mentioned, I feel pretty satisfied. You know, something else, though, that I would love to plug is that, you know, it’s not just the short Inclusion Uncomplicated video series, it’s not just the book, but you know, I continue to want to build upon this idea, because I think there’s a lot of, of merit to the possibilities that can deliver it by doing so. And so one of the other ways in which we’re helping organizations to lean into this, this message of, you know, unraveling the knot that binds humanity together, is we have an Inclusion Uncomplicated learning experience, and it is it is really all about unraveling the knot. And it’s like, a day and a half long, in person learning experience. It can be virtual for those that need those special accommodations, but it really is intended to be in person. And we’re going to take a lot of the concepts of the book and a lot of those micro learning activities and really expand them and a lot of critical reflection. And so I’m hoping that organizations will find that experience to be worthwhile for a cohort of individuals within their organization, particularly maybe those that are in leadership. And so just wanted to put that into the universe and and hope that it lands on some people who are curious and will want to learn more and contact this.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, and no, I’m so glad that you you spoke to that. And we will put all all this information in the show notes. So people who are interested we’ll connect them with your website, share a link to where they can buy the book. So where can people purchase your book?

Dr. Nika White
Yeah. So Inclusion Uncomplicated, a Transformative Guide to Simplify DEI can be purchased anywhere you like to get your books, you also can go to Amazon. And so we hope that you will check it out. And we’d love to hear your feedback. We’d love to know what’s resonating, what curiosities you’re holding, but to be in conversation about it is it’s intended to spark dialogue.

Sarah Noll Wilson
What the best place for people to connect with you? If people are hearing this and they want to reach out and they want to learn more about the work you’re doing?

Dr. Nika White
Thank you. I so appreciate that. I think probably the best way is just to go to my website, which is nika white dot com. I also have a speaker website, which is nika white speaks dot com. But both of those sites will direct folks to multiple ways to follow me, connect with me and I would very much welcome those opportunities.

Sarah Noll Wilson
What do you want to celebrate? I mean, I just like let’s let’s end where we started. What’s something you want to celebrate about this, the journey you’ve been on and this milestone that we’re in, in this present beautiful moment together?

Dr. Nika White
You know, what I want to celebrate in this moment, Sarah, is the fact that the connection points of deep convictions around this work. And around just a care and compassion for people has connected me with individuals that are amazing, such as yourself. And I think that what that does for me is it gives me even greater hope around the good in the world, and around the possibilities of when we put our minds together and we really do care about something and we can, you know, really hold steadfast with that endurance that we can make change. And that’s important to me, because I don’t want us to ever lose hope. So I want to just celebrate that. So I want to celebrate you, my friend, I want to celebrate, celebrate when you’re a big supporter and I yeah, I love how you show up to the world and to this work. I mean, while our work, there’s some intersections there, they’re not directly kind of, you know, connected, but they are in the sense that it is a care for people to show up better for themselves and for others, you know.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I so appreciate you.

Dr. Nika White
And that’s what I want to celebrate.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Thank you, Twitter, for bringing us together.

Dr. Nika White
(laughs) I know, exactly. You have to catch the previous Conversations on Conversations, to hear that whole story about how Sarah and I met on Twitter and immediately bonded and no looking back.

Sarah Noll Wilson
We – in the show notes, Nick, as you’re listening to this, we will put in the show notes will like re-link to it so you can listen to the part one and the part two here and hear the evolution. Dr. Nika White, thank you. I mean, just, ah, thank you for being here. Thank you for giving us your time. Thank you for giving the world your wisdom, your emotional energy for, you know, your endurance in all of this and, and for sharing this time and just, you know, a huge congratulations again to Inclusion Uncomplicated, it’s it’s a real triumph. And it’s a huge milestone, and I’m so I’m so excited for the impact that it will continue to make and so just thank you for being you.

Dr. Nika White
Thank you. I receive all of that, my friend. Thank you so very much. I really enjoyed this conversation. And I’m just grateful and honored that you you thought of me to want to bring me back.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Our guest this week has been Dr. Nika White. And while I have pages of notes from reading her book and our conversation, I think the thing that I’m really holding on to is that idea of am I better today than yesterday? And how do I continue to move forward in progress and not perfection? I think that is a really easy thing to get caught up into. And that is something I really want to hold on to. And we want to hear from you help us understand what resonated for you, what pushed you, what challenge to you maybe. You can reach out to us at podcast @ Sarah Noll Wilson dot com. Or you can find me on social media, where my DMs are always open. And if you’d like to find out more about the work we do and how we can help you or your team have conversations that matter. Check us out at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com. You can also pick up a copy of my book, Don’t Feed the Elephants! wherever books are sold. And if you’d like to support the show, please consider becoming a patron visiting patreon.com/conversations on conversations where your financial contributions will not only sustain this podcast and the amazing team that makes it possible. You’ll also get access to some pretty great benefits like swag. And if you haven’t already, please be sure to rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. Doing so helps us get the word out, increases our visibility and to bring on amazing guests like Dr. Nika White. Thank you to our incredible team who makes this podcast possible. To our producer Nick Wilson, sound editor Drew Noll, transcriptionist Becky Reinert, and the rest of the SNoWCo. crew. And just one big final round of applause for Dr. Nika White, big congratulations on her latest book, please go out and buy it. Check it out. Buy it for a friend. It’s a really great read.

This has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you so much for listening and remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So thank you all for joining. We will see you next week. Please be sure to rest, rehydrate and we’ll see you soon.