Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Brandon Springle as they discuss psychological safety, and how organizations and leaders can work to create cultures focused on vulnerability and safety.
About Our Guest
Talks about #feedback, #empathyatwork, #employeeexperience, #authenticleadership, and #psychologicalsafety
Brandon is a dedicated HR (Human Resources) Leader with over 15 years of evolving experience working in multiple industries including Manufacturing, Background Screening, Health Insurance, and Sports & Entertainment. Brandon currently serves as a Divisional OD and Success Director at Shaw Industries where he has spent the past 9+ years. Brandon is a certified psychological safety coach using the “4 Stages of Psychological Safety” framework. Brandon is also certified as a Change Manager with intimate knowledge of the ADKAR process.
Brandon is a senior leader focused on providing an amazing experience at all levels through a service-oriented approach that is rooted firmly in psychological safety. Brandon recognizes that there is power in aligning individually diverse talents to a shared vision where success is dependent upon the collective brain trust of the “team”.
More than anything, Brandon loves to see people thriving as opposed to simply surviving. Brandon enjoys spending time with his wife and four children in his personal time. Brandon enjoys his hobbies which include reading, writing, music production, and all things basketball.
resources mentioned
SCARF Model – David Rock, “SCARF: A Brain-based Model for Collaborating with and Influencing Others,” NeuroLeadership Journal, vol. 1, no. 1, December. 2008
The 4 Stages of Psychological Safety: Defining the Path to Inclusion and Innovation by Timothy R. Clark: https://a.co/d/9LJN25K
Purposeful Empathy: Tapping Our Hidden Superpower for Personal, Organizational, and Social Change by Anita Nowak: https://a.co/d/h7gT1Yq
Transcript
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with yourself and each other. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson. And joining me today is one of my newest friends from the interwebs that I’m so excited to introduce you to, Brandon Springle. And we’ll be talking about this idea of psychological safety. So let me tell you a little bit about Brandon. Brandon is a dedicated HR leader with over 15 years of evolving experience working in multiple industries including manufacturing, background screening, health insurance, and sports and entertainment. Brandon currently serves as the Divisional OD and Success Director at Shaw Industries where he has spent the last nine years. He is a certified psychological safety coach using the four stages of psychological safety framework. Brandon is also certified as a change manager with intimate knowledge of the ad karma process. He is a senior leader focused on providing an amazing experience at all levels through a service oriented approach that is rooted firmly in psychological safety. Brandon recognizes that there is power in aligning individually diverse talents to a shared vision, where success is dependent upon the collective brain trust of the team. More than anything, Brandon loves to see people thrive as opposed to simply surviving. He enjoys spending time with his wife, four children, his personal time, he has hobbies, which include reading and writing, music production, and all things basketball. Welcome to the show, Brandon.
Brandon Springle
Thank you glad to be here.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m so excited. I’m so excited to have you on the show and to pick your brain and to learn as much as I can from you. Because you’ve been spending a lot of time in the field of psychological safety with your work. Before we hop into that, though, what else would you like us to know about you?
Brandon Springle
Well, you covered the foundational pieces. Just I’m really excited to be here and talking with you. And I really just love to interact with people and share ideas, engage either in person or digitally, as we’ve done in the past. So that’s all I would like others to know about me.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, no, I love it. So talk to us a little bit about your journey. You know, folks in HR, some people, like make their way to HR, other people find their way in HR and I’m curious to know what your journey has been.
Brandon Springle
So mine was definitely finding my way. My undergraduate major was sports and entertainment management. So my dream was to be a GM of an NBA team. So there’s some personnel and some management in that sort of field. But it was in the sports and entertainment arena. So I had taken an HR class in my undergraduate curriculum. And I was fascinated with that class. And it kind of stuck with me. And as I started getting into that job market, sports and entertainment, I realized, you know, people will do this for free.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. (laughs)
Brandon Springle
So I had trouble getting paid internships, and they were like, hey, no money, but you get to set up this really cool experience and meet some amazing people. We’re not gonna pay you anything. So I was like, that’s not going to work. Because one day I’d like to start a family. And in order to do that, you gotta have some, some financial resources to do that. So I kind of went back to the drawing board, I did some research, and I learn more about the field of HR. And I found some parallels and connectivity between sports and entertainment, management, creating experiences, and then cultivating relationships within a workplace. And so I made a pivot, I pursued a master’s degree. And long story short, and that’s how I ended up in the HR field.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Got it. Got it. What was your, what was your masters in?
Brandon Springle
Human resource management.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It was in human resource management? Got it. I’m always curious about that. Yeah.
Brandon Springle
Sure. And in between that sports and entertainment in HR, I spent time working in health insurance. So working for Blue Cross Blue Shield of South Carolina, and I started looking at contracts and understanding benefits. So that was another thing that piqued my interest on the HR side.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. What do you you know, when you look at the work, you get to do what, you know, what’s the work that you feel most passionate about?
Brandon Springle
The work that I feel most passionate about is really around the employee experience. In creating the conditions where people can be at their best. So really talent development, talent enablement, that that wheelhouse is what I’m most passionate about, really enjoy that part of HR.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. When did you, so, okay, so let’s talk psychological safety. So let’s, for a moment, assume that there are people who are listening to this who maybe have never heard that term, maybe they’ve heard that term and they like think they know what it means.
Brandon Springle
Sure.
Sarah Noll Wilson
How, how do you define psychological safety or what’s the definition that you operate from?
Brandon Springle
So my operating definition comes from Dr. Timothy Clark and the Four Stages Framework. And I love it because it’s really simple. It’sa culture of rewarded vulnerability.
Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s so beautiful.
Brandon Springle
Yeah, because psychological safety is all about being able to express the humanity that we all have. And so when you reward it, there are productive outcomes and people continue to demonstrate vulnerability. However, if you were to punish it, you would get silence. You get fear, anxiety, so many other feelings will come up if you punish vulnerability.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Do you find, I’m curious, do you find in your work, whether it’s internal, or when you have conversations, maybe what you know, with colleagues, that people struggle with that language of vulnerability? And they’re part of that, let me back in, the reason I’m asking is sometimes I run into that where people will be like, Well, what is you know, they think to be vulnerable is to, you know, share all of your secrets. And so when you think about vulnerability in the workplace, what does that, what does that look like for you?
Brandon Springle
I will say it’s actually getting better, like more people are starting to see vulnerability as a strength. I think about Brene Brown and her work around courage and things of that nature, I think that was a big factor. There still is some sentiment that vulnerability is still tied to weakness to a degree.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Brandon Springle
And I still hear that, but I will tell you, it’s gotten a lot better over the last three to four years, because of some of the things that have happened across the globe.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, and I think that, you know, like, as we get into this, we’ll talk about, you know, examples of what that looks like, or, you know, or even that, that idea of what does it look like to reward because I think that, I think one of the things that we see a lot is folks who, you know, when you say like to punish it, I’m guessing most people would be like, Well, I would never punish it, I would never do it. And yet, yet we know it happens, right.
Brandon Springle
Sure.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And we know that that silencing happens. So, so again, just like deepening this, especially because you know, you, I know, you’re so passionate about Timothy Clark’s work, and you’ve deepened my understanding of his work as well, because of – so FYI, folks, if you aren’t connected with Brandon on LinkedIn, please do, follow his stuff. He’s constantly sharing really great insight and references and resources and all of that. But one of the things I think is really interesting about his work is that the idea of the four frameworks to make it even more concrete, so talk to us about what what that looks like, like, what is the Four Framework? And then let’s dig into how the hell do we create this in the workplace?
Brandon Springle
Right. So the reason why I dove deeper into Dr. Clark’s work is because of the Four Stages, and then it’s progressive. And so the first stage is Inclusion Safety, right? So just safety on the basis of humanity. I accept you, because you’re a flesh and blood human being just like I am. The other qualification is, I understand that you will not harm me and I will not harm you. Harm cannot come into the relationship, or inclusion safety can’t be granted. The second stage is Learner Safety. So that is safety to learn, grow, make mistakes, ask questions and things that nature. And so the third stage is Contributor Safety, which is essentially, I’ll give you guided autonomy, if you give me results. And so that’s when you’ve kind of arrived, you understand what you’re responsible for. The fourth stage is the tough stage, it’s Challenges Safety. And that stage is where innovation really comes to play. Because you essentially are given somebody the air cover, to be candid. So if you’re in leadership, and you have a team, can your team speak freely? Does your team know that you have their back as long as they’re seeking to improve things. So if you think about a continuous improvement mindset, making things better. That’s where challenges safety comes into play. And one of the core skills that that requires is the ability to manage up.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Brandon Springle
And that is a hard thing to do. So if I have to say, hey, to my CEO, or to the CHRO, I don’t necessarily think we’re going in the right direction, I have some, I have some advice. Well, if that goes wrong, that could be my career –
Sarah Noll Wilson
That could be your career ending.
Brandon Springle
My career could be completely derailed. So it takes a lot of vulnerability to to move in that way. And another concept that I really like, from this framework is there’s a ladder of vulnerability. Everything that we do, every act of vulnerability is not the same cost.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Say more about that. Yeah.
Brandon Springle
Sure. So if I see somebody, you know, in the workplace, and it’s a new person. And I say, “Hello, how are you doing?” Well, that’s an act of vulnerability. Because, you know, if it’s punished, they might say, “Don’t talk to me.” And reject me. And then that has an effect on my psyche. Or they could say, “It’s great to meet you.” And then we have common interests and we start to have discussions around those common interest and we build a relationship, that’s rewarded vulnerability. That’s simple. But if it’s a higher cost, like if it’s further up my ladder, and I have to say, I think I’m made a mistake. And the reports has already gone out. And I need to let my boss know I found an error after it was submitted. (chuckles) That’s a little bit higher level because you wonder, will this be on my performance evaluation. Will I take a hit? You know, to my credibility because of that. So those are, those are some of the different levels as far as acts of vulnerability goes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, that’s, that’s – It’s interesting, because you know, what’s coming up for me, as you’re talking about that is, we all have, like our own ladder, right, I assume like is how it’s kind of – And I can imagine where there are situations where I maybe I don’t recognize that this was a risk for you, or this was vulnerable for you, because it didn’t feel vulnerable for me. And, you know, and the thing that I’m trying to push myself to think more about is also looking at, right, intersectionality related to risk taking, and you and I’ve had some conversations about this, and how how do external factors then also contribute to what feels risky?
Brandon Springle
Absolutely.
Sarah Noll Wilson
For someone versus you know, someone else because of who they are, what they look like, all of that. One of the things that I’m curious about? So there’s a couple of things, there’s a couple of things, you said that I like to dig in a little bit. Sometimes, I know I use the word harm. And I don’t always know that it like resonates for some folks, right, particularly maybe people who are used to always having positional power, or historically dominant power.
Right.
But you know, when we think about what harm in the workplace can look like, –
Brandon Springle
Sure.
Sarah Noll Wilson
What are some examples of that? Because again, sometimes I think people think, really overt, and that happens, for sure. But then there’s like more subtle acts of harm that I feel like we we miss consciously or unconsciously, but they still happen.
Brandon Springle
Sure. So this can get kind of deep, because harm is, is can be different depending on what your background and experiences are. I mean, but essentially, in a basic way, it’s something that causes damage, either can be physical or emotional damage. But in a more subtle way, it could be something as simple as a microaggression. You know, I remember a situation when I first started my career, and I sent an email out, it was a company wide email, probably was my first one. It was a, it was a pretty big distribution list.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Brandon Springle
And I receive feedback from a leader. And they basically just told me, that was so well written and articulated, almost like, and I was like, well, thank you. But then I realized later, what they’re saying it because they didn’t expect that to come from me, and you start to understand what might be at the root of that thought process and you feel harm, even though that was actually what would seem like a compliment, right? So, it can get deep, but you really have to check your biases at the door, and see people as human beings, even before we get into the different dimensions of diversity and things of that nature, humanity first, and just, hey, this is a person coming into the workforce, that wasn’t the way that needed to go. So as I shared it with others, they explained to me, that was a microaggression I didn’t know what it was because I had just started working. But um, as I learned it, I recognized it was likely somebody demonstrating some unconscious bias.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. And to your point, like not expecting, right, because you’re a black man, or, you know, a young black man at the time, even more so.
Brandon Springle
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Like to have those assumptions. See, now I want to pick your brain like, how do you respond? Because what’s going through my head are, you know, maybe conversations I’ve been a part of, or pushback that I’ve received. You know, when we think about creating cultures of safety in particularly, it’s starting with that, like really foundational necessary level of inclusion safety, like, am I safe to be who I am with you?
Brandon Springle
Right, yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And when we talk about this idea of damages, which I really love that word. I don’t know that I’ve heard it said like that, even though it’s like, I’ve like I’ve thought of it like that, but I’ve never given it that that label. So that’s, that’s a real gift you’re giving me. To people who would say like, well, people are just too sensitive. I feel like that’s something I’m hearing a lot from some people who are have been in again, management positions for a while, like they, you know, whether it’s that said about younger generation or whatever, but they’re just they’re too sensitive. They, you know, like, they take things too personally. How do you navigate those conversations when that’s the pushback you’re you’re getting, because obviously like there’s a spectrum, right? Some people are like, yep, I want to do it and they’re trying, maybe they don’t always realize where they’re missing the mark, but they’re open to it. Maybe there’s people who are, you know, like, yeah, I get it. But I’m kind of not committed to it. And I’m just kind of curious to hear your perspective and what just what experience you’ve had in those similar situations, because we’re just starting to hear a lot of that lately.
Brandon Springle
You know, from a thinking frame is sensitivity bad, or is sensitivity good, right? So being sensitive is being aware, you know, and, and being aware of how you feel, as well as how others may feel based on interactions that have taken place. If you think of a bystander intervention situation, you know, sensitivity is a gift, it’s all how things have framed. And so I really advise people to treasure hunt, and to seek understanding about why a response is coming out a certain way, and dig a little deeper, don’t just look at the surface and say, oh, this person is sensitive, I can’t say anything around this person. You need to think about what you’re saying and what the impact might be. Because intentions are one thing. But the impact is what you really want to measure and assess for. And if you’re not careful, people won’t tell you what your impact is, because you are creating harm. (chuckles) You know, in the way that the communication comes out. And calling somebody sensitive when they engage in an act of vulnerability is punished vulnerability in itself. You say, yey, you’re just sensitive. It invalidates everything, that person just says, you know, invalidation is very important. You may not agree with somebody, but everybody deserves validation.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I can already tell this gonna be part of the conversation and go back to and listen to and like take notes. (laughs) Especially that, that idea of really pushing against the, the thinking of is sensitivity good or bad, and right? Or a sign of weakness, or, and that definition of well sensitivity is a form of self awareness, right, of being able to, to have that emotional, emotional sense of self awareness. And, and even just, and again, part of it is I’m still learning Dr. Clark’s work. And so there’s, just hearing the language of, right, like, what are the ways in which we’re punishing the vulnerability? And we don’t realize it? And what are the ways in which we’re rewarding or validating? I think it’s such a, it’s such a powerful framing with this. When, when you are, when you are working with a team, you know, or group of people, even if it’s just maybe like a relationship, how, how are you assessing the level of psychological safety? Because I know and I can imagine that it’s really easy when you are the person in position of power and authority to assume that everyone feels safe like you do. And you might have a, I mean, you do like, I always use the example, my company, I’m the owner and the founder, who do you think has the greatest level of safety in my organization? It’s me, you know, because I get the final say in it. And I think that’s a trap we can fall into and I know I fall into this too, I fall into it as a leader, I fall into it, as you know, like somebody who’s often in the dominant group that I just assumed that because I feel safe, you feel safe. So how do you assess? Or how do you help leaders think about and identify the assessment of psychological safety, so they can get a sense of the reality of it versus their desired wish? (laughs)
Brandon Springle
That one is a bit harder, I’ll be honest, I mean – the best way is to be a safe person, yourself, you know, so really, I really focus hard and I strive to be empathetic, even when I may not feel that way, you know? There are times that are difficult and that’s something I work at. I mean, I don’t, I’m not just naturally empathetic, I have to really work at trying to understand what’s going on with others. And so from that approach, you start to build a reputation or credibility in that space, where people know, hey, I can tell Brandon the truth, and he’s not going to basically punish that, you know, he’ll he’ll reward it. And so, by using the language and explaining it, people understand they can bring things to me, and I’ll help them without making their situation worse. The reason why most people don’t report things is because they believe things will get worse, not better, you know. And so if there’s somebody that they can go to to say, I think they understand they’ll respond in such a way that will help me with what I’m really facing, that, that’s a good situation. So from a leadership perspective, when I sense it in the environment I work to coach the leader and help them understand what I’m sensing, what I’m seeing, without always getting very specific, because you want to preserve, you know, confidentiality, if somebody’s coming to you directly you have to be very careful about that part.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, right.
Brandon Springle
But just saying, hey, there’s some, there’s some undercurrent here. And when you think about psychological safety, it’s underneath the surface, right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Brandon Springle
So if you think about an iceberg dynamic, it’s an underpinning. Psychological safety is simply an enabler, right, of something that’s good. It’s a part, it’s a component of culture. And so when you see people not asking questions, when they should be, (laughs) then psychological safety usually has taken a hit, our people are fearful to ask the questions. And then there will be meetings after the meeting will, you know, everybody will say what they could have said in that meeting, but they were fearful of what the response might have been, or they didn’t want to talk in a room of, you know, 60 or 100 or 200 people. So silence is a signal for lack of safety.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, the, you know, being able to – it’s so important for, again, speaking of leaders, when I say leaders, right, people who have that positional power and authority, that they have folks who can be honest with them. Because just the dynamics are, we know that people are less likely to be honest with them, especially their team members are going to be you know – nobody’s going to tell you, Hey, Brandon, –
Brandon Springle
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I don’t actually trust you. I feel very unsafe with you. Like, that’s, that’s not gonna happen. And, and yet there are these like, what to pay attention to. I feel like – was it something I don’t remember if it was something you posted recently? I might be attributing this.
Brandon Springle
I’ll take it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay. (laughs) But at somewhere, somewhere, there was a conversation going on about like, no news isn’t necessarily good news.
Brandon Springle
Oh, yeah!
Sarah Noll Wilson
That was you, right?
Brandon Springle
Yeah. That was me.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay. I was I was thinking that it was something you had posted in a back and forth with that.
Brandon Springle
Yeah, that was where I talked about silence being a signal. That was the way I opened that post up. But, yeah, when I started my career, I would always hear well, I guess no news is good news. I’m like, no news is terrible. Because we don’t know where we stand, how we’re doing. Like, we need to hear feedback. You know, feedback is a gift. And we at least know where we stand and where we need to make improvements.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. What are the most common traps you see folks fall into when it comes to – you know, when we think about that challenger safety being the hardest to develop, right? For somebody to say, I disagree with you, or I think that we’re not headed in the right direction with this strategy. Or I think that there’s an underpinning of distrust here that we need to address. Those are, for a lot of folks, and I know myself included, that can be a really risky situation, especially depending on again, like who you are, or how you were raised. And and part of that going back to your language is like be the safe person. What are, what are some of the, you know, subtle ways? Again, I always want to get to the subtlety because people think of it as really overt – that, that that people don’t receive those moments of challenge effectively.
Brandon Springle
Now, when you, are you referring to like leaders not receiving it?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, or just like people in general.
Brandon Springle
So let me start at the beginning of this psychological safety journey, because I didn’t really dive into it. So the first thing I study was neuroscience. And I know you can get into neuroscience pretty deeply as well, but it was Dr. David Rock’s SCARF framework, you know, where you have status, certainty, autonomy, relatedness and fairness, right. So as I started to understand how our brain works, you can kind of see how people might take things in different ways. For example, I’m high in status, people wouldn’t probably believe that, because I’m pretty, you know, I’m humble and things of that nature. But I’m also equally high in fairness, so I want to win. (laughs) But I want to win the right way. Right. But with my wiring, I don’t necessarily love being challenged. So I have to be very intentional about how I respond and how I model things. And it’s actually easier at work than at home. (laughter) My wife is probably, she’ll listen to this and say, you don’t you know, you don’t behave that way in the house.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Brandon Springle
So I have to do better at home, but certainly in the workplace I am very very intentional about it because number one, at the level I’m at, and I understand people may see that as a potential barrier or hey, if I say the wrong thing to him, he may have connections or he may be you know, closer to the top and things could be different. So, modeling that behavior is critical. You know, especially when you’re being challenged, and also saying, hey, what’s wrong about what I’m saying?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Brandon Springle
I’m inviting dissent, like, I want, I want you to tell me, pick pick this idea apart and tell me what what’s wrong with it. And listen and reward that vulnerability, because if somebody gives you feedback and says, Well, I don’t really like this part. Our one exercise, we use at work, I like, I wish, I wonder. I wonder about, I wonder about this part of it, you know. But you can, you can frame how you give feedback, and it has a completely different tone. Like, if you’ve given somebody something that may be hard to hear, the first thing you want to ask them is, is now a good time to have a conversation. Like, sometimes you’ll hit somebody with something. And it’s going to be a bad response just because the timing is off. And then another tip that I have learned over time is because I care about you, I would like to share something with you. You know, I want to share this specific thing, because I feel like if this changes, you’ll be able to achieve this outcome. So it’s constructive, as opposed to you did this thing and it hurt my feelings and please don’t do it again. And you might say, what, that’s how I needed to communicate, you know, but you’re not given the full picture. So helping people understand what the challenge will lead to is, is really critical. You know, like, if you, if you challenge me, and I’m inviting the challenge, then we can build off of that and be productive. As opposed to you challenge me and I feel like I’ve been hit like, I’ll give you an example. One time I was working with the leader, we were in a full room of people. And we had had a conversation about something and I had given the person feedback. Well, they made sure to bring it up again, in a room full of my peers and leadership. And they said, “Yeah, I already talked to Brandon,(laughs) but I’m bringing this back up.” And I felt like I felt harm.
Wait, wait, just I want to make sure I’m tracking it. It was feedback you gave this person or they gave you and then they were bringing it up in front of the group?
Well, they we talked about it and we walk through it. And so they seemed like they were okay. But then it came back up in a bigger group setting. And then they got the same answer again. But it was almost like, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Got it.
Brandon Springle
There was there was some harm in that interaction, because it was almost like, well, I know we already talked about this. But here, here it is, again. And it was a room full of people. Now if it were a situation where they had gone to somebody else who might have insight into that situation, kind of wonder why. But I felt embarrassed in the situation, because it’s almost like, again, status is important to me. And it’s almost like Brandon was incredible to give me the right answer. So I’m asking in this group setting to make sure. And if I was wrong. Wooh, again, that would have been another issue because that would have been pulling me out on front street where I was trying to have a productive conversation and answer a question off to the side. So that’s a situation where challenge can be unhealthy. Like, if you, you have to be respectful and how you navigate that, and understand that leaders have feelings too, you know, that we have, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
They’re humans they have amygdalas, they have trauma, they have, you know, all of that.
Brandon Springle
And that’s one thing I’ve experienced over time, and sometimes when somebody in a subordinate position or that’s in a lower level or didn’t have the authority has an issue with somebody above them, they forget that there’s feelings there too, and that there’s another side to the story. And they think more about their own experience at times and don’t make that connection. So we make no excuses. Leadership, leadership has a higher standard and a higher calling. And being a leader is tough. I think it’s a calling 100% because it’s tough work. But at the same time, you still want to protect that individual from harm, you know, because somebody’s not seeing somebody else’s harmful if they see a person as an object or a barrier that’s in their way, as opposed to another human being.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, you gave off just like a spray of like really tangible things. That’s one of the things we always want to talk about here is like specific things we can say. So you know, I just want to kind of like replay them back because they’re worth repeating. Right, what’s wrong with what I said? Right, like – what, there was a post recently on Kwame, his negotiation page, and I liked it, and I have to go back but it was kind of similar. Like instead of, instead of asking, like, you know, is there anything wrong with this thinking? It’s like, no, where am I wrong? Like, assume there’s something you’re missing? And so I love that about your language, but the I like, I wish, I wonder, such a simple. I mean, it’s because I think sometimes we we need just the little starters, right? Or just like frameworks to go, how do we, how do we navigate this? Like, I really like this, I wish this and I wonder about this, right? This is what I’m kind of concerned about, here’s what I’m curious about. And then and then that language of because I care about you, I’m telling you this. And I think that that is something that, again, like goes back to humanity in the workplace means some like basic level of care, and respect for the person. And sometimes that can feel really too vulnerable for some folks, right, because of how they’re conditioned because of their experience or, you know, gender roles or culture. So I just wanted to go back and play back some of those really, like the really simple but really powerful, powerful ways. What else ya got? Well, I mean, I just want to like, you just give us all your tips. (laughs) No, I’m just –
Brandon Springle
Well, yeah, went off and I did kind of spray with it. But that was, um, challenges such a tough one, because there are assessments tied to the four stages framework. And challenger safety is always mostly in the red zone. So the red zone is the danger zone, the blue zone is the, you know, reward zone, and then there’s some gray, but if you’re in a gray, you might as well say you’re more so in red, right? So I think that’s important. The other thing is, you know, we talked a little bit about just harm and interactions and things of that nature. Behavior has to be modeled on a consistent basis, like you, you can’t just leap into trying to practice psychological safety without some modeling overtop, and it’s even more difficult if you have a reputation. So if your reputation is not to be the way that you’re trying to shift to, that’s going to be even more of a challenge. And you have to be able to demonstrate a significant amount of humility, to really own, to own your impact on others. It is really challenging reading to go through what I learned in psychological safety, because I had to deal with my own times where I made people feel unsafe. As well as replay (chuckles) situations, even going back to when I started working, and even being in school where I didn’t feel safe and because I didn’t feel safe I just shut down. Or I just, you know, I decelerated basically, I went backwards. And that was, that was painful. But once, once it sunk in, I recognized, this is something that I’m going to spend a lot of time on, this is something that I’m going to teach as many people about, as will listen to me, and I’m going to continue to learn and grow in the space.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s hard, for me anyway. Like, when I find out my impact is different than I want. Right? And now, there are times when I’m like, yeah, I was poking the bear, right? Like, there are times where it’s like, oh, my shadow intentions, were at play or whatever. But that, you know, it’s, it’s still hard when you’re like, and it just happened this week, I got feed, right? Like, you know, I get, we get feedback all the time when we deliver sessions, and you just go, damn, like that, shoot, shoot, like, even if it’s just one person, right? Like, that always hits me really hard. And then I have to like, bounce back up and go, okay, so now what are you gonna do with that? Right? How are you going to move forward with that? That, that humility, and consistency is so important, and I know one of the things that, that, that I have learned is, you know, if you are like, to your point, if you’re somebody who maybe doesn’t show up in a way that’s listening, or asking questions, or open to feedback. And you start to show up this way, I always tell leaders, don’t be surprised if you actually, like, have a moment of dipping in the trust, because people are going to be skeptical and cautious, like and like, what the, what the heck are you doing? Like, you know, or don’t be surprised if your spouse, because this is usually what happens, somebody will come back and be like, I practiced that listening, you know, exercise on my wife, and she was like, “What’d you do? Why are you not trying to solve my problem?” (laughter) I was like, that consistency, but adding that humility, like adding, it’s that consistency, like just constantly modeling it over and over and over. And doing the work to own it when you realize you haven’t, because it’s as hard – as much as it hits to hear that feedback, you know, on some level, the damage may be worse to the other person who was on the receiving end of that, like –
Brandon Springle
One hundred percent.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Like, damage or harm, you know.
Brandon Springle
And that’s where it comes into humility. Like even if I’m practicing, I’m letting people know and I’m letting them know why I’m practicing. Like if there, if there has been some information given to me and I have not shown up in the way that I want to show up. Then I have to let people know, I’m actually working on myself, I’m trying to be better. Please give me feedback as I’m on this journey. And that takes a certain set of humility to be able to do that, as opposed to just jumping into the practice and showing up drastically different. Either people will believe you have been cloned, (laughter) or that you are not being authentic, right. So it’s one, it’s one of two options with a situation like that.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Well, and I, and even that is, I think, such an important practice to highlight because I think a lot of times, a lot of times I see, you know, for example, they get, somebody gets a 360. And they go back to their team and say, Thank you for your feedback, right, I’m gonna work on it. And it’s very generic, instead of being explicit, which is, it’s vulnerable to say, I heard that there are things I do that give the perception of X, Y, and Z. Or they’re things I’m doing, and this is my impact and that’s not what I want. So I’m going to work on doing, I mean, that is very vulnerable. And that act of how you not only receive the feedback, but are able to take action on the feedback is such a critical moment of creating that trust. And like sometimes I’m like, it’s not even about the comp, you know, it’s like, you know, asking for feedback isn’t just about getting the information. It’s how are you demonstrating, you’re showing up? How are you following up? How are you showing appreciation, thanking people? Hey, I know that was hard to share with me. And I appreciate you sharing that with me. And then and then not just listening to it. We had a guest once who, they were like, don’t just be good at hearing feedback. You know, be good at acting on it, too.
Brandon Springle
Yeah, I mean, I think is really important. And I think about feedback, again, feedback is an act of vulnerability, I think of an act of vulnerability, almost as a seed. Like, I like to think in garden terms. I’m not a gardener by any stretch, but I’ve watched it being done. So I get the process, right? So you have the seeds. The culture is really the soil to me, right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Brandon Springle
So your seeds go into the soil, and sunshine, and the water comes from that being kind of rewarded or you get rocks, thorns, thistles, and it pushes the seed out or it stagnates the growth. You see, as your seeds grow, and they’re getting ready for breakthrough, I see that almost as four stages in the crop coming out of that is basically a manifestation of that harvest, that fruit that comes from those, those initial seeds when they’re properly nurtured. When when seeds aren’t nurtured, when feedback isn’t received well, or when people you know, almost reject it, or give excuses or blame, deflect, avoid, or makeup things, going to the elephants. (laughs) That, that creates a very, very bad environment as far as people just, they’re never going to give you feedback again, and they’re still going to be issues, and then you won’t know them because you’ve now created your own blind spots by not responding well.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s the, yeah, it’s that, that, and what they have to say this time might not be critical. Like maybe it’s not as, but because you’ve silenced them now you could miss out. I mean, like it, it is important. It’s always important, right? But it’s like, you’ve now shut down any kind of back and forth. I, something that and I’m curious to hear what your experience has been. But as you know, from the book, right, as a Midwest white woman, grew up very conflict avoidant, very – I just never had any kind of relationships where there was honesty. Not that there was an honesty, but candid, you know, like candor, and pushing each other and challenging. And so for me, I feel like my greatest growth has happened because I have more people in my life now, who are more comfortable than me showing up like that, and showing me what it’s what’s possible, like, what does it look? You know, I remember the first time somebody saying something similar like, Sarah, I love you. And we’ve got to figure this out. And I was, Oh, is that how you can deliver this message? You know, like, some of it is, I think a lot of folks don’t know what it can feel like to be in a relationship where you can go oof, that’s hard for me to hear, but I can still be present with you. And I can still be curious with you, or I can process my emotion to that feedback of it being hard for me to hear while still respecting you giving it to me. Like that’s, you know, I just know that that for me is, that’s been such a journey. It’s still a journey, right? Like, I’m still not where I want to be consistently. And so much of what’s helped my learning curve is just being around other people who are like a couple steps ahead of me, or have some of the tools to show me what it’s like because otherwise you just don’t even know what’s possible, and it’s just better. It’s just better. I feel like you know,
Brandon Springle
Well, because we’re human beings, we have to realize we’re never going to feel 100% safe So it’s a journey, constant journey, where it’s going to ebb and flow depending on what’s happening around us. When you have the frameworks and the tools in mind, you can start to diagnose and work through things differently. But just because I’ve learned a lot about psychological safety doesn’t mean those feelings of fear, those concerns, maybe even I might be silent or not speak up at times, because I just don’t feel like I’m going to be heard in a situation. And so I still work on it every day. But it’s not, it’s not a place where you arrive. It’s constant, it’s is a journey. But one thing I always want to make sure people are aware of is, you know, being uncomfortable is not being unsafe.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yes.
Brandon Springle
You know, being comfortable, being uncomfortable is a growth mechanism, right? But when you’re not safe, you need to understand, why aren’t you safe? What are the things that are making you feel that way, and then start to really try to root those things out. And even if that means I need to go talk to somebody, right? Because I can’t, this is something that’s too big for me to tackle alone. And I think that’s, that’s okay, as well, I really am grateful for this, this push towards mental health awareness and, and I think that helps the case for psychological safety even more, because it’s not, you know, it’s not a stigma anymore. We have, we have started to work past it. There is still, there are still some places where it probably is stigmatized, but I know organizations, and specifically the one I work at, they have done tremendous, tremendous work in making, making it very clear these are the tools that are available. We want you to use these tools, We don’t want you to feel and again that that encourages people if something comes up, we have leaders now that can give a list of resources or they know how to respond. And that wasn’t the case seven, five, six years ago, you know.
Yeah. Well, and that goes back to your your garden metaphor, right? I mean, you know, even organizations who focus on and care about mental health, sometimes I think they miss, they can miss the impact their culture has, their soil has on nurturing well being and mental and emotional well being. And, you know, so don’t don’t just focus on doing, you know, a lunch and learn on, right, you know. Figure out how do you make the soil pH balanced. (laughter) So that the, you know, like, the culture can, you know, like, everyone can thrive in it. I have a lot I want to talk about, and I want to be thoughtful of time. So from your perspective, what is something that we haven’t covered that you wanted to make sure that we gave space to?
Really to tie into empathy, and making sure that we are actively working on empathy, because empathy, as far as my study, that came before psychological safety as well. You know, in order to really embrace this concept of psychological safety, you have to embrace empathy, and not just empathy as far as seeing, but, but also empathy as far as acting. And so there’s a spectrum that probably starts at pity and ends at compassion, I imagine, right? But you can be active in your empathy, and be more intentional and deliberate about how you follow through. When you, when you activate empathy, when you’re active, when you’re purposeful, you know, it’s a different amount of talks. And she has a book about purposeful empathy that I think is amazing.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Who was that? What was that name again?
Brandon Springle
Dr. Anita Nowak. So she has a book on purposeful empathy that’s fantastic. But when it’s purposeful, when it’s intentional, then things change, you know, because again, we’re wired to be that way. We’re wired to care for each other, you know? But we’re also wired to detect threats in the environment, you know, and that’s, that threat detection. (laughs) Also, we’re hunters and gatherers, and we were looking for things that are good, too, that would, that would nurture us. And so we’re always searching and seeking and looking around for signals in the environment around us. We’re wired to be that way.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I really appreciate because you even mentioned this early on in our conversation of just owning that, you know, that that act of empathy maybe doesn’t always come as, didn’t come as easy or naturally to you. And I love the modeling of that because sometimes I think people just think, well, you’re born with it, or you’re not. And, and it is a muscle.
Brandon Springle
Well, I can, I can share this with you. The first podcast I ever was a part of the podcast hosts, he told me, he said, you must have been an empathetic child. And I said, I don’t think so. I didn’t really talk to anybody. Like I was quiet. I was introverted. But then actually, I went back and I asked my mother –
Sarah Noll Wilson
I was just going to ask, is she still around?
Brandon Springle
And she said, yes, you were very empathetic. And then she gave me these examples of the things that I had done. So, again, it goes back to the point of it’s innate, you know, it’s within us. And when I didn’t think about it, I just demonstrated it, because children are some of the most empathetic beings that we have on this planet, right? Because they haven’t learned the other things yet. (laughs) They haven’t learned some of the things that, you know, create toxicity between individuals and things of that nature, they’re just children, you know. And so watching, I have four of my own so watching them grow up and seeing their different styles. They just, they’re born with empathy, they’re sharing, they’re king, they’re loving and it’s just, it’s natural.
Yeah. And that, that, that language you use of don’t just see it, don’t just feel it. But what can you do to act on it
That’s right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it reminds me of, for our listeners, we had the privilege of interviewing Dr. Tina Opie recently. So she was on a previous episode talking about her book, Shared Sisterhood. And one of the practices is like this idea of digging and bridging, like the digging, the self awareness, and then bridging. And a lot of her work is about how, you know, we can move forward from an equity place, specifically looking at relationships between black women and white women. And she’s like, but the challenge is, is make sure you aren’t only digging, right? Like, don’t, don’t just dig, don’t just learn, don’t just reflect. Also, like bridge, what’s the action you take? And so that’s, I’m just making that connection that, that being active in empathy. I have to give credit, so the audience knows that Brandon came up with another elephant that we’re add, you know, adding to the the arsenal of elephants, sometimes I bring it up –
Brandon Springle
And it’s a stamped, right? It’s a stampede.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s a stampede. It’s, it’s it’s a stampede now. (laughs) But, you know, when I wrote the book, I was looking at more like fear based, you know, and then and then you you open up the door to reflect more on more aggressive based elephants. And specifically, you reached out to me, I hope it’s okay, that I’m sharing this, but the Gaslightephent. You know, when the, when the person is shutting down the conversation by convincing you that there’s no situation to have a conversation about and what you experience – I mean, that’s how I interpret it. And what you experienced wasn’t real. So I wanted to make sure I shared that. And thanked you for that –
Brandon Springle
Of course.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Like offer.
I appreciate you for granting permission. It’s refreshing to see an author with the work such as yours to say, Hey, if you have anything you want to share, here’s my email address and send me stuff. I mean, as, and I’ll talk about an active, I mean, even me reaching out to you on the front end just to you know, talk about some things or you know, ask for, I think we were talking about maybe a potential speaking event or something of that nature.
Yeah.
Brandon Springle
But I mean, your response to me, and then the conversation that came out of that, I mean, you truly rewarded my vulnerability, because we didn’t know each other. And I’m like, I don’t even know she’s gonna respond. But I’m going to ask because her work is so dynamic, and it’s so connected. And I just want to see if there’s a chance to kind of work on some things. And I mean, but you rewarded my vulnerability, that’s, that. You did it organically. That’s what you do. And so I just want to honor you for that. And thank you for that.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Aw, thank you.
Brandon Springle
Absolutely.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Thanks for taking the risk, because you’re the one who showed me the door that I didn’t know was there between us, right, like, and now it opened it up. And there will be more collaborations between the two of us. Like, I’ve got some plans for (laughs) that I need pick your brain about or to have you be part of, but I do I mean. Well, so first, thank you. It’s, I mean, it’s kind and it means more than you know, honestly, like your belief in the work, and also just helping us try to make the work better. Right? You know, I know there’s limitations to it and being in conversation with me, and whether it’s in texting, and which also, I just want to use this as another example of you can build relationships virtually. right?
Brandon Springle
Absolutely.
Sarah Noll Wilson
We’ve never met in person. I mean, we’ve had, now we’ve had multiple conversations, but the relationship was formed just through texting on LinkedIn and following each other’s posts and seeing and learning more about each other. And you know, now and now here, we get to have you on the show and continue our conversations and introduce you to the rest of the world. So just thank you so much. And I have to, I always ask this question for first time guests. So I’m curious to hear your response. So we always ask the question as we’re winding down our time and thinking about conversations and how they can shape us. So Brandon, what was a conversation you’ve had with yourself or someone else that was transformative?
Brandon Springle
So I’ll give you, can give you two?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, you can give me as many as you want. I mean, whatever you, I’ve got time.
Brandon Springle
Okay. (laughs) So I remember a conversation when I first started in my HR career, and it was actually somebody that was about to leave the organization I was with and as they were exiting, they told me you are really inspirational to me. And they gave me some examples. And I know part of it is me being a young black male in the HR profession, that was a part of it. But the other part was, I always encourage people to pursue their dreams and to go after, you know, what they want to do in life. And so that was the first time I recognized, I’m actually making a difference, like people are watching things I’m doing. And they won’t say anything, but it’s actually having a profound effect. So I didn’t really know about that before. I figured, if you’re helping somebody, (laughs) if you’re making a difference, they’ll tell you or you’ll hear it. But that’s not always the case. And I also recognized, you know, my presence, and the work I was doing had a bigger effect from a representation standpoint than I ever knew. And so that was a, that was a pivotal moment for me, to where I was just kind of happy to be there. (laughs) Like, I’m just happy to be here. And I almost would downplay my impact, I remember saying things like, Well, I’m just, I’m just an HR generalist. Like, this isn’t for me, like, I don’t want to, I don’t want to get into that, you know, and almost, like, diminish my light, dim my light a little bit, just because probably the truth is, I felt like I didn’t belong, you know, for that reason. So having somebody tell me that you’re making a difference. This is how, and this was a, this person was much younger than me, too, by the way. So it was almost like, they saw me as inspiration, told me why and that kind of lit my fire. And I think I pivoted from there.
The second situation was a conversation with myself. I went through some leadership training, we go to a WinShape campus or something of that nature, out in Rome, Georgia.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m not familiar.
Brandon Springle
If you’ve never been, it’s a beautiful place. But we were nearing the end of the training. And it was getting kind of weird. Like, I didn’t know what was happening. Like, we were watching this video, and they were like, it was somber and sad. And then they were like, well, you all have to walk and you have to be quiet. And I’m like, what are we walking into? And so we show up in this in his room, and I see like, a priest or something. I’m like, are we going to church? Like, are we going to church? Like what is going on? And then I walk into this room, and there’s an open casket, and they tell us to sit down. And they tell us, um, you know, you’re at your funeral. You know, what might people say about you, or who might be in attendance, you know? And I was like, and just so you know, you know, this is me being vulnerable, like, my biggest concern or fear in life has always been like, I struggle with death. Like, I would not go to, like, I wouldn’t even go to funerals. But here I am thinking about my own, and the legacy that I would want to leave behind, you know. And that was, that was challenging, but it changed, it changed me. And I’ve never been the same ever since. I really thought about being more intentional with how I live my life and how I engage in interactions. Because you never know when it might be your last interaction. And what what do you want people to remember you for? What legacy do you want to leave behind? And as I started to have more children, you know, what, what do I want them to know and remember about me as well? And then family, friends and loved ones. So those were two transformative experiences, where one was somebody talking to me, one was me having an internal dialogue, in thinking through those things, like true thinking through those things.
That’s an intense. That’s ,that had to have been a really intense experience. Like I was like, I think I’m having a trauma response, just imagining, (laughs) you know, like going into this room, but that’s part of the design, I’m sure, to shock you a little bit and go oh, shoot, I got a, huh. (exhales)
Yeah, they gave us blank obituaries and said, write your obituary.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Got it?
Brandon Springle
(laughs) It was intense.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Wow, yeah. Thank you so much for sharing those.
Brandon Springle
Sure.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And one of the things that I really appreciate about you is, you know, and we don’t necessarily work together, but we’ve been in conversation and I’ve had a chance to observe you in different settings, is sometimes I think we think a leader looks and sounds a certain way. And I think that you you role model this really beautiful, not silent leadership. That’s not the words I’m thinking of, but like a like a powerfully, like quieter, because sometimes I think like so much, you know, people defer to people who speak really loudly or really quickly or they’re more extroverted and like you have such an anchored energy about you, that’s very calm and feel still and like, and I just like as I’m sitting here and reflecting on the conversation and hearing your stories and sharing and I just can’t help but think like and we need more leaders like you. Right, who who are willing to show a different way and who are willing to do the work. So I’m just, I’m so, I’m grateful that our paths have crossed. I look forward to seeing what comes from our paths crossing again. And, you know, just from this side of the fence of, you know, looking over, if there’s ever moments of doubt of needing your voice, we do. I think sort of now more than ever. And I’m just so, I’m just really, really just sitting here in deep gratitude that you reached out. And that we get to sit here today and continue this, so thank you for for being such a strong role model for all of us.
Brandon Springle
That means, that means a whole lot. I mean, ultimately just wanting to make a difference, make a positive impact in the world is really what I’m, what I’ve always been focused on. As things pass, and as you see things changing. And I’ll tell you, I mean, I’ve seen more loss in the last, really last few months. And that’s shift, shaped and shifted me to a degree as well. But I just appreciate you, you know, for speaking into me, because depending on what’s going on, you never know what’s going on with people, that’s why it’s always great to be kind, but you are just kind by nature. And, and I just appreciate it. And I’m grateful that your voice is out there, that you have this platform, that you’re using your gifts, you know, to bring light to the world and just encourage you to continue doing that and sky’s the limit.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I just received that hug. So thank you. It’s all received. All right. So my friend, for people who want to connect with you and want to learn more about you, who want to follow you, who want to learn from you. What’s the best? What are the best places for them to connect with you?
Brandon Springle
Yeah, I mean, realistically, I spend a good bit of time on LinkedIn, that’s really my Facebook and Instagram is really as LinkedIn. That’s where I spend my time. (laughter) I just enjoy the dialogue, the conversations, the engagement from that platform. So that would be the best place to connect with me on LinkedIn.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Perfect.
Brandon Springle
Send me a connection request would be fine.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. And we’ll put those in the show notes. And again, I just want to reiterate, be sure to follow Brandon. And Brandon, thank you so much for joining us today.
Brandon Springle
Thank You. I appreciate it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I appreciate you.
Our guest this week has been Brandon Springle. And I have you know, as always, I have so many notes. I have to go back to that jaw dropping description when he talked about sensitivity. When I asked that question he said, “Well, first we got to ask why we’re asking if sensitivity is good or bad, because sensitivity is just self awareness.” And that one just, I want to hold on to that, amongst many other of the great tips he shared. And I’m so excited. I would love to hear from you, what resonated, what came up for you. Maybe you tried some of the language he shared because he just kept giving us gift after gift. So please feel free to reach out to us at podcast @ Sarah Noll Wilson.com. Or you can always connect with me on social media where my DMs are always open. And if you’d like to support the show, please rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. Your reviews help us get exposure so we can bring on great guests like Brandon Springle today. Also, you can become a patron by going to patreon.com/conversations on conversations where your financial support supports this team that makes this show possible. And also you get some pretty great swag out of it as well.
A big thank you to our team that makes this show possible to our producer Nick Wilson, our sound editor Drew Noll, to our transcriptionist Becky Reinert, our marketing consultant, Jessica Burdg and the rest of the SNoWCo crew. Thank you so much. And just a big wholehearted thank you again to Brandon Springle for bringing his insight, his wisdom and his vulnerability. This has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you all so much for listening and joining us this week. And remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So till next week, my friends, please be sure to rest and rehydrate and we’ll see you again soon.
Sarah Noll Wilson is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. She aims to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching and Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health.