Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Kai Gillespie as they explore a shift away from top-down, one-size-fits-all talent development and toward a more individualized approach.
About Our Guest
Kai Gillespie has been in Learning & Development at IMT Insurance for over 7 years and in the Talent Development field for over 13 years. Kai is originally from Washington, DC and found herself in Iowa after receiving a prestigious full-tuition scholarship to Grinnell College. Needless to say, the move to the Midwest was a culture shock. Kai later received her Master’s of Science in Leadership Development from Drake University.
These days Kai focuses more on organizational development and culture. She is on a mission to make organizations people-focused. Kai likes to have long discussions on the nature of work, people feeling a sense of belonging, and the state of women in hip-hop. She is always up for a coffee date to discuss these topics and more.
Resources mentioned
- LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/natalienorfus
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and with each other. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson. And joining me today is my good friend and colleague, Kai Gillespie, where we’ll be talking about how can we think about developing ourselves differently. So let me tell you a little bit about Kai and then we’ll hop into it. So Kai Gillespie has been in Learning and Development at IMT Insurance for over seven years, and is in talent development field for over 13. She’s originally from Washington, DC and found herself in Iowa after receiving a prestigious full tuition scholarship to Grinnell College. So needless to say, (laughs) it was a bit of a culture shock for her to come here. On many levels, I have no doubt. Kai later received her Master’s of Science and Leadership Development from Drake University. These days, Kai is focused more on organizational development and culture. She is on a mission to make organizations people focus. Kai likes to have long discussions on the nature of work, people feeling a sense of belonging and the state of women in hip hop, (chuckles) I love that. She’s always up for a coffee date to discuss these topics and more. Welcome to the show, Kai!
Kai Gillespie
Yeah, thank you for having me. I’m very serious about the state of women in hip hop. Like, it’s a true thing for me.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I have – okay, so like, when you say the state of women, what are we talking about? Like the lack of respect, the lack of representation? What, what is that for you?
Kai Gillespie
It is both. It’s almost like weighing it right. Because women are dominating in hip hop.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Kai Gillespie
There’s like hundreds of women in hip hop, leading the best artists list, leading, like, the most popular, the hottest song, and yet, there’s still a little bit of that lack of respect.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Kai Gillespie
Even that’s changing.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Kai Gillespie
And it’s just like, no one cares what the dudes are doing.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. Right. (laughs)
Kai Gillespie
Like it’s the women in hip hop. There’s, like a chef’s kiss in the, and the plentifulness of it all.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Kai Gillespie
I just love it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And for so long, right? Like, I feel like women were just like, so objectified and it’s fun to see them, like reclaim their power and like, –
Kai Gillespie
Yes! Reclaim that power.
Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, and just like, own it and bring and bring totally different types of sounds. Right? And beats to it.
Kai Gillespie
Yes! And experiences and perspectives. They’re not just the add on, right? It’s not like Cash Money has only Nicki, there could only be Nicki Minaj or Tara Squad. I’m sorry, has only one like there’s room for more. And you don’t have to be the add on to the dude rap group. You can be your own individual. And so I just, I love it right now.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it.
Kai Gillespie
It’s an interesting place to be.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay, so what else would you like us to know about you, Kai?
Kai Gillespie
Okay. Um, uff. I’m all about state representation, because I’m from Washington, DC. That’s also something I’m very passionate about. Yeah, and I don’t know. I just feel like I just hang out in West Des Moines and go about life nodding my head. (laughter)
Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s so like painfully accurate not about you. But many of us I think, like, yeah, ah huh, here we are. This is another day.
Kai Gillespie
Hanging out. Like this is cool. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
What I yeah, we’re, you know, folks, we’re coming at you at the end of the day at the end of September. It’s been a trying day for Kai, it’s been a long day for me and so this will either get, could get, it could get a little sassy. It could get saucy, it could get incoherent potentially. But it’s going to be – it’ll be a good time. I – Kai and I first connected – did we first meet at Drake or was it through talent development? Was that where we first connected?
Kai Gillespie
I think it was talend development. I think I saw you – Oh! I saw you facilitate for the first time to a large audience. You were doing Kiss The Lizard.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, that’s right. You were in the first session.
Kai Gillespie
Yeah. I seen the beginning, shooting star.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Such a baby, 2010 Association of Talent. Holy schnikeys. We have video footage of that. I need to go back and look at baby Kai and baby Sarah.
Kai Gillespie
I was real awkward.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) So was I. No, I don’t. I was like god, god, way to go Sarah for being confident enough to have Nick record it. Now I look back at it and I’m like ew no, I don’t know what I was doing.
Kai Gillespie
Like there’s a great, great amount of people who will think that way about social media.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Right. But what – you know, obviously our paths continued across from from Drake University. And most notably, in the last couple of years. We have gotten a chance to collaborate and create some cool programs. And the goal of today isn’t necessarily to talk explicitly about that unless we want to get into that. But more, you know, the the work we did together was really driven by your passion of how do we think differently about how we develop people. And so what I want to start with is take us on that journey for you, you know, what, what brought you into the world of learning and development from an adult perspective? And how did that shift as you evolved from like a fairly typical trainer, a corporate trainer, to the deeper work you’re doing now?
Kai Gillespie
Yeah, so I feel like I fell into talent development training, like a lot of people, you just kind of like fall into it, like you trip. And then all of a sudden, it’s like, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, I’m training now.
Kai Gillespie
Yeah, like, I guess? (laughter) And I think when you end up tripping and falling into a career, you go by the book –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh yeah.
Kai Gillespie
Of what’s possible. And I get that. You’ve got to learn the basics, you got to learn what was done before. But I feel like specifically to when it comes to the work of developing others in corporate settings, it’s very narrow scope. Understandably so. You’re looking for increased productivity, you know, what kind of in product do I need to get from a corporate standpoint? And so that’s kind of was my thought process for many, many years. And in the Drake program, I had a professor asked the question, “What’s the nature of work?” And she – like that question alone just broke my entire life. What’s the nature of work? I didn’t know. Is it transactional? Does it have to be transactional? Could you do something because you liked it and you didn’t get paid? And is that work? Is it to put food on the table? Is it something that you’re passionate about? I know lots of people who aren’t passionate about the work that they do, but they go every day. That work? And so that kind of just like broke my brain a little bit. In a delightful way.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Kai Gillespie
It start to have me rethink what works could be. And so once you start to think about this concept we have, that we engage in an activity, a job, work for the amount of time we do in our life, you start to question everything about it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Kai Gillespie
So applying that to what I used to do, train people, train people, onboarding, training, you know, Excel training, anything, how to communicate appropriately or effectively or write good emails.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Quote unquote, appropriately by a white corporate standard.
Kai Gillespie
(laughs) Whose standards? Yeah, and you start to just question everything about what could be, what is and what could be. And at about this time, when I started to get really curious about the nature of work, and the nature of development, I found myself with a boss who was receptive to it, right. So it’s one thing to have a quiet interest that doesn’t have an environment for which you can start to take full shape, and get said and get opportunities to kind of experiment with it. But I just found myself in an environment that that became possible. And that specific environment was our company deciding no longer to do performance reviews, and decided, so they checked performance reviews, which is pretty radical for an insurance company.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right.
Kai Gillespie
Pretty staid Midwestern insurance company. And they decided as a company, that they wanted employees to own their development. And that’s like, okay, so you don’t want employees to wait to be told what to do. Wait to be told what success looks like for them, wait to be told what the next step on their ladder was. You wanted employees to have enough self efficacy and enough direction internally innately, to be able to say for themselves? And I loved it. I’ve just loved, I love the idea then, that was over five years ago, and I love it just as much now. But I realized how uncomfortable that is for people. Because that’s not part of the social contract of work.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. It’s not the rules. It’s not the rule book.
Kai Gillespie
It’s not the rule.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, Have you and I had lots of conversations around that, and even just exploring, you know, I’m thinking back to some of the questions of just yeah, what what would transformative development look like? What would it look like to support the team members? What does it look like for the leaders and, and embarking on a really meaningful, powerful development approach of a very, like, focused on the person? And so I’m curious, I’m curious to hear from you. You know, that was something that I know, in our early conversations you were so passionate about is how do we even just help people think about their own learning and evolution as a person, not a worker, differently? And what you know, from your experience, your perspective, the work you’ve been doing over the last five years? What do you feel like is so important about that? I’ll just leave it at that. I won’t even give context like I know, I know why I think that’s important. But why do you feel like that’s so important for us to reframe this idea and conversation of development?
Kai Gillespie
I think it’s important because it allows space for the individual, which previously in work settings we didn’t allow. And that’s something that’s very important to me, simply because I have learned over these last five years, I think COVID definitely highlighted that, that we are people first. And that that is who we are pouring into, that’s who we are giving space so that they can pour into themselves, which I think it’s the most critical thing. And I think the reality of it is that a lot of development programs, performance management programs are broken, because it’s telling people who they should be. Rather than listening to who people are, and giving them space to decide for themselves. I was talking to someone and they mentioned a succession plan and was like, oh, yeah, I think so and so would really be really good for management. Have you told them? No. Do you know if they want it? No. That’s inherently flawed.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(chuckles) Yeah.
Kai Gillespie
Inherently flawed, regardless of if that individual wanted it, this top down approach of development, I am developing you to be what I want you to be. What!? What kind of like corporate egocentric thing –
Sarah Noll Wilson
And here you said you are gonna bring any wisdom to the conversation.
Kai Gillespie
I don’t know. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
That point, that point, that point of reflection of how, how often is it we’re trying to develop you, we’re trying to tell you who to be, instead of to leaning into who you are, is, is so powerful. And, gosh, it’s so interesting, you know, what you don’t know is I just got done with a conversation with an incredible woman, Natalie Norfus. And we were talking about something similar, like, people might not want what you want. And like, how do you be okay with that? And how do you check in with them to be like, what, what would success look like for you here, in this role in this company?
Kai Gillespie
I also think we have to be careful when we say people may not want what you want, because it’s not even that. We are products of our, you know, Western capitalist society. Everyone wants to be a manager. Sure, because that’s what we’ve told people success looks like. So yeah, a million people will say, Yeah, I’ll take a spot in middle management, and spend the next 25 years of my life with my bonuses and my days off. Sure. Because I’m told that’s what success looks like.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Kai Gillespie
If we scrape away societal expectations of who we are supposed to be, is that truly what you want? Or is that what your total success looks like? Is that what’s spoon fed you, since you were a baby, on what you should want? Or if we dig deeper? Is there something, a little nugget of truth about who you are that is, based on your values, what’s most important to you, what shapes you, that truly lights up your life? And it has nothing regarding being a middle manager, managing others, managing teams in that way? And what happens if we pour into that little nugget of who we are, at the end of the day, if at our very core beings before we’ve had roles assigned to us, by other people, right? What if we pour into that and we unleash that in, in office and I do want to rephrase the idea that we unleash it. We give permission, or we give space for others to unleash that within our offices, within our –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s not me doing it to you, but I’m giving you the space to do it yourself.
Kai Gillespie
Instead, I am giving you space to be who you are wholly freely at the end of the day. I think that’s more powerful. And I think you’ll end up with a more engaged workforce. People who are passionate about the work they do because their work is centered not in societal expectations, not in what your idea of what they should be doing, but instead of what truly feels good to them, is their most innate self.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah, it’s a – (laughs) a thought that was coming up for me as you were talking and the language you’re using is, I don’t think a single eight-year-old when they’re in second grade, and was asked what do you want to do when you grow up is like, I want to manage a contracting team (laughs) in insurance. I always joke like, having spent most of my career in insurance, insurance isn’t sexy.
Kai Gillespie
My daughter wants to be a Village Inn waitress.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, I love it. (laughter) Well, so so so let’s –
Kai Gillespie
That was hard for me, I going to admit it, that’s hard for me.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure, say more.
Kai Gillespie
Cuz I talk, like, so openly about like, yes, it’s skewed, societal expectations. And now my girl, how are you gonna take care of me in retirement? On a waitress salary? (laughter) I’m going to need something more than pie.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Kai Gillespie
On Wednesdays, it’s not gonna be like, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
There’s only so much like peanut butter chocolate silk pie.
Kai Gillespie
I mean at least own the place. Franchise, something. I think it speaks to something of how we are still a part of this society, even though we recognize the places where our society may not work for humans.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Kai Gillespie
Like, we’re still a part of it, it just that I’m like, girl. (laughter)
Sarah Noll Wilson
I mean, more than pie.
Kai Gillespie
What am I saving you college fund for if that’s the end game?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Well, and like, we, you know, it’s like, it’s a loop. We’re, we’re, we’re raised into this system, we contribute to the system, we perpetuate the system, some of us, right, more than others. And, and okay, so I want to, let’s actually talk more explicitly about some of the work you’ve been doing. We can talk about the work you and I did together because it was really anchored in this idea of how do we help people get clear about what’s important to them? And also think about what’s what’s actually the impact you want to make? What like, what, what is the work you want to do, and not by role but by impact?
Kai Gillespie
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And so talk to us about, you know, what has that looked like? What are some of the things you’re experimenting with to do differently to help people think differently about development? And so what are you what are you trying? And what are some of the results that you’re getting from what you’re trying?
Kai Gillespie
Yeah, I think the start of it is being honest about our organization. So we are not a terribly big company.
Sarah Noll Wilson
You’re not small.
Kai Gillespie
We have 400 employees. And we’re a fairly flat organization. We don’t have a lot of leadership positions that come up each year, and so chase, the idea of our employees, they were chasing leadership roles. I just need to get into leadership somewhere, regardless of if that was a good fit for them or not, right, because that’s the idea of success. Well, what happens to engagement, if the thing that they thought they wanted, it’s hard to come by? They could be great employees. Right, amazing, individual contributors. Do we want them to leave to chase that? Or do we want to help foster an environment that is less focused on the roles, the role you have, right, your title, positional power, and instead focus on on the impact we want to make? And are we able to live that impact in whatever role we are in? And so that was kind of, you know, for thinking organizational development that was kind of strategic on our plan to make that pivot because we knew that along with dealing with a mass exodus of baby boomers, we would then have, you know, gen xers and millennials leaving because they felt like they didn’t have the space to achieve what they wanted to.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Kai Gillespie
And we’d had some experience with that in the past. So we really liked the idea of instead of focusing on roles, to instead, focus on impact, and the idea that you can be a leader, you can, you can have your impact no matter what you do. So what that looks like in practice is a couple of different things. We have a program called Developing Differently, and it’s not the first I wanted it to be at its very inception, I wanted it to be like, oh, like a development plan, you leave with the development plan, right? That was my idea. And I brought that to you. And I was like, I need your help. And then in talking through it, we kind of talked through, you know, is it that they need to leave with a development plan? Or they need to, or we would like them to leave knowing how to develop themselves?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Kai Gillespie
Right, like, so is a piece of paper is that good? Like, oh, this is what I’m gonna do? I’m gonna do this in the first two months, and then I’m gonna do this, then I’m gonna do that? Or is it more advantageous is better for the employee, if we’re truly people focused? Would it be more beneficial to learn how to develop yourself, no matter where you are, no matter if it’s personal, or professional. And those are skills you can take anywhere with you. Be it for the for where you are right now, you end up in a different season of life later on, those are skills you have in your back pocket. So that’s kind of the way we decided to go because it felt like the greatest gift we could give to our team members. It’s like, the greatest gift I could give to others.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Kai Gillespie
I think that’s partially because it’s the greatest gift I needed at that time too.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I do, I do remember, I mean, you were in I mean, I won’t necessarily share like things but like that you are in an evolution too.
Kai Gillespie
I went through the mud. Both personally and professionally.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. And one of the concepts that you brought to the table as we were, we were pulling together and building on a program. So just so like, so folks who are listening, so what this looks like, or what it looked like and how it’s evolved was a really small cohort of of no more than 15 folks who, who submitted applications to be part of it, ultimately, you know, we, we were, the goal was to just include anyone who wanted to be there and wanted to do the work. And instead of it being a traditional training, it was more of a group coaching experience through different things of how do you actually build self awareness? How do you get clear about what’s important to you? How do you pay attention to the gap between how you’re showing up? How do you ask for feedback? What does that look like? And one of the concepts that you brought to our work that was really transformative was the image and the idea of the Sankofa Bird. And I wonder if you’d be willing to talk about that with the audience.
Kai Gillespie
You know, that has such a special part in in my life. So I grew up in Washington, DC, born in the 80s, grew up in the 90s, in a era where DC was considered Chocolate City because it’s 70%. Black, right? So drastically different than Iowa. When I came to Iowa, a friend said, Are you a lone chocolate chip in the sea of vanilla? That’s how she described it. (laughter)
Sarah Noll Wilson
You’re like, yep.
Kai Gillespie
Yep, yep, little bit of caramel, bits. (laughs) Totally. And so Sankofa was a term that I grew up hearing from my mother and from people around my mother. My mother had – I called it her back to Africa face. (laughs) So like, I definitely was raised with the concept. And when I brought it to you, that was the first time I bridged my black American self with my corporate America self. It was like the first time I saw coming together two things that I thought had to be separate for success in corporate America.
Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s, I don’t, I don’t know that you and I’ve ever talked about it in that way –
Kai Gillespie
No we didn’t.
Sarah Noll Wilson
But it was a, I mean, I – so I appreciate you sharing that and also like there’s a sadness there and also a happiness you know, because I, I know that I will – again going back to the you know, not what do I want to say like both when you start something new you feel like you have to, like follow the rulebook, but also like moving as a black woman in a very predominantly white or like white world, right? There’s rules that are bestowed upon you or you feel. I mean, there’s just there was multiple layers of in our work that one of the things that was really profound for me was starting to see the glimmers of like Kai, like the real Kai come out, you know not the not the Kai that you felt you had to be in. I think that that is such the gift that you’ve given other people.
Kai Gillespie
Thank you for that. It’s definitely been a long time coming. But yeah, so like, that’s why that that moment is very important to me.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. So for people who are unfamiliar with the Sankofa, talk to us about what it is and the origin with your mom.
Kai Gillespie
Yeah, it’s a saying from a tribe in Ghana. And it is of – well, I’ll explain it because I was just, I just did, remember this, remember this?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah! Look at that baby! Okay, so for people who are listening to the audio we’ll describe it. You’re gonna have to go on YouTube right around 27 minutes, 30 seconds. So you can see Kai, hold up the, the, yeah, she’s holding up a poster with the image of the Sankofa along with everyone’s individual symbols of their impact.
Kai Gillespie
And I want to make a bigger one today for each each cohort to add.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it. Oh, I love that.
Kai Gillespie
This is the image of a Sankofa bird, and as you can see, it’s a bird facing forward with a seed on its back. And the idea is that you take the seeds from the past, you look back into the past to take the seeds, the learning from the past, to help ground you and where you are right now. So that way you can walk with more sure footing into the future. Right. And so it’s kind of funny thinking about what bringing that into corporate America has felt like for me, because it definitely was me pulling from my childhood. My, you know, learning my afro centric mother, especially while mourning her death and pulling that and grounding me in my today and having it decide, how do I want to do Kai in corporate America going forward? So yeah, that’s the Sankofa and a nut shell. Looking back to understand where you are now, so you can walk with more sure footing into the future.
Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, it was so great. What was so powerful about the co-creation is how does that, how do we, how do we pull from different cultural values to shape, right? And that became, that became the symbol of the group of and how do we help people practice that? And how do we help them see what it looks like too or the value of it, to to experience it? I remember, I remember when we first started working together, I don’t remember if it was the first session or the second conversation. So for context, we had like six well we had six virtual sessions. And then there was conversations that happened in between. And again, it was much more of a group coaching facilitated reflection, instead of we’re going to teach you these facts. And, and I remember like, I could see the evolution of you becoming more comfortable. And there’s times where like, I’m just going to let like Kai run the show, like, she’s, she’s just like, we’re in the church of Kai right now. Like she is, you know, like, like, you know, and it makes me think of my friend Bonnie, she always says, what comes from the heart touches the heart, and it was a really beautiful from my, from my perspective, like, I don’t want to, I don’t know if shedding is the right visual. But again, it was just these like moments of power, right? Like you, the more you stepped in, and really the more you stepped into you and brought that to the table, you were even more powerful for the group to do the same. And, and there were some really provocative and profound shifts for folks, you know, without necessarily sharing explicit details but – yeah, like what you know, on a high level, without sharing identities and things like that, what were some of the shifts and you’ve since gone on to do more more of this work, but you’ve also expanded the work and the work that you’re doing with Gilmara from a diversity, equity and inclusion perspective. So what what are some of the shifts you’ve seen in folks who have been more intentional about walking this path of thinking about development differently?
Kai Gillespie
Well, one of the things you warned me is like, Kai, you know, people are gonna quit, right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. (laughter) Yeah, just an FYI folks.
Kai Gillespie
I’m like, how the hell am I supposed to sell this to my boss?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Like, people might quit –
Kai Gillespie
You may lose people. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Because we’re connecting them to what’s important, but we want that because we don’t want them to stay.
Kai Gillespie
And you realize insurance ain’t it. (laughter)
Sarah Noll Wilson
And it did happen.
Kai Gillespie
And it did happen. We had people who left, and that was the best send off ever.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Mm.
Kai Gillespie
Because I felt like they were leaving to explore who they are. And not just on to the next thing.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Kai Gillespie
I think we’ve had a couple of people, and I’ve talked with them since, gain greater foundation in who they are. And that meant saying no to something. So if you’re part of association, and one of the our cohort members dropped out of your association outside, they’re just gained some clarity on what they’re saying no to and it was, it was your volunteer position. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. (laughs)
Kai Gillespie
Our your whatever. But, you know, gaining that clarity means that they’re now more focused, and they have been more focused on going after the things that truly make a difference for them. And so, with that, there has been – I hate, I hate the idea of selling programs like developing differently as like, bring it to your company, because then your employees will be more engaged. But there were findings from our research that employees left that program feeling more connected to our company, because they were able to not only pinpoint their values, and what was important to them, but start to realize how they can live their values where they work, right. And so one of the things that will always stick with me is that it’s less important what a company’s values are, and more important if a person can live their value at a company they work. Right. And so that window gave our employees an opportunity to do that. And so it’s like, I hate to sell – get this program and your employees will love you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, well, I think that –
Kai Gillespie
But there is that –
Sarah Noll Wilson
There is – yeah, because we we’ve, we saw the same thing at my last company, where we designed the initial like prototype of this, that, obviously, we evolved in our work together, we’ve seen it in others. The thing that I will say, though, is work like this, if your, if your end goal is ultimately still a transaction of getting more out of people? That will never feel authentic to people.
Kai Gillespie
Faulty foundation.
Sarah Noll Wilson
But if the goal, yeah, if the foundation is I want to pour into you, I want to help you be your best you. And that comes from a really authentic place. And oh, you know, a side effect of that is, right, because we’ve invested the time to really pour into people in a meaningful way more than just a two hour, right, Lunch and Learn or something like that, that there can be a ripple effect of engagement. The other thing that I want to say is, you know, and one of the things we’re intentional about is making sure that there’s somebody internally, who not only will co-facilitate this kind of work, because it does show a commitment from the company, but also it has to be facilitated by somebody who’s trying to live and breathe the work as well. So part of why people felt even more connected to your company, it was because of you.
Kai Gillespie
Thank you for saying that. I do want to gently push against something you said.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, please.
Kai Gillespie
Like this idea of pouring into people just kind of doesn’t sit well with me.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kai Gillespie
Because it feels like, if we think about how, as a society, we’ve traditionally thought of teaching people or learning people, we open their brains and pour things into it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure. Yeah.
Kai Gillespie
And now they’re better. And it’s just like, what I think what made what we created co created different is because we weren’t trying to stuff their brains with stuff. They already knew –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right!
Kai Gillespie
What was important to them. It was there the entire time.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Kai Gillespie
What sometimes I feel gets in the way is societal expectations, not having time to explore the self, not having time to self reflect. And so it’s so much it’s not pouring into others, but giving people space and time to connect with self.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, no, I appreciate that pushback against language. Right. And this is something we’re trying to be more intentional about in our own work is that language is so subjective, and, and I think that for me when I think of being poured into It’s more than like, given the space to, right? So it’s like I’m – when I feel poured into. So I like I totally, I was like, yeah, that’s good. I need to think about my language here, of like, it’s not us pouring into you pouring insights and information. But it’s like, we’re loving on you. We’re nurturing you. We’re creating the safe space. And so like when I think of like, Oh, I feel really poured into it, because like, oh, you saw something in me that I maybe didn’t see myself. And so, but I, but I also love that you pushed against the language. So just to clarify, but, and like such a great, it’s a great conversation too – I mean, multiple things I love about this, I love that you pushed back against it. Because, you know, we don’t, in the Midwest often, like disagree enough.
Kai Gillespie
(laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
I mean, I know you’re not like native Midwesterner, but you’re in the Midwest culture,
Kai Gillespie
But I’ve been here long enough.
Sarah Noll Wilson
You belong here, you know. So I really appreciate that. And I think it’s such a good – your clarification of it is also really important that when when, when you think about creating the space for people to develop differently, again, going back to that one of those very first things you said, it’s not developing you how I think you should develop.
Kai Gillespie
We just finished a cohort yesterday. And there was one person. She came into it so stressed, weighed down, just weighed down. And her impact statement on the Share It, was to be the ringleader of my circus. She said this. Weeks ago, or technically months ago, like four months ago. We go through this entire thing. One of the things she said she was gonna let go was worrying about everyone else and what they’re doing. And if the work doesn’t get done, work doesn’t get done. I need to I need to pour into me. I need to take care of myself. And I was like, I think you knew that months ago.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Kai Gillespie
You didn’t say, you know, My impact is to be the ringleader of IMT circus, their circus. Them over there, my department’s circus.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Kai Gillespie
It was your’s, your circus. Right? And so you spoke to yourself when you created what your impact was. And now it’s connecting in your actions, what you know, to be true for you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
That, you know, that’s so beautiful. And the thing that’s coming up for me is, we don’t, we don’t take the space, we don’t feel like we have the space, we might not know – because this was something you and I talked about is some of it is just do I have the time? Do I feel like I can take the time? And some of it’s also, nd, and do I know how to, how to approach it? And do I know how to make it even more effective or more powerful. And that’s, you know, one of the gifts of, of giving people the space and time to just think about them as a person. You know, like you said, it’s already in there. You know, I worked with a coach once. I mean, this was from a communication messaging, but same thing, she was like, it’s like, if you if you say, you know something, and it feels really obvious, like for us it was I think we’re all about curiosity. I was like, but that just feels too obvious. She was like it’s but it’s not because it’s been like, it should feel obvious, because it’s been in your operating system for so long, you’re just giving a name to it. And I think the same thing is true, it’s like that wisdom and insight was in her in so many others is just not maybe feeling like, like the power of giving a name to it. And also the the time to reflect on it, and to have people reflect back. That’s so powerful. Because again, and I know we have a lot of global friends. So we’re speaking from a Western American culture, hustle, hustle is still the order of the day, right? It’s starting to change. You see more people prioritizing rest and their boundaries and all of that. And so there’s so much power and just slowing down enough, like developing doesn’t have to be doing more.
Kai Gillespie
It could be doing less, cutting out the things that –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Kai Gillespie
That don’t matter. But you have to be aware of what matters to know what doesn’t. And sometimes that’s hard for people.
Sarah Noll Wilson
What do you feel like as you’ve been on this journey for the last five years, you know, both working with, you know, people, whether they’re in a worker position or in a managerial position – what are some of the traps that would be important for people to maybe be aware of that could get in the way, you know, for somebody who’s listening going, Wow, this sounds really interesting. I want to bring this to my organization or maybe even personally thinking like, I think I want to, I think I need more of this in my life of like, I think I need to rethink my development. What are some of the just like things to be aware of?
Kai Gillespie
When engaging in this kind of work it is easy to get sucked into what was or what we thought was true, or what we even think is capable. And one of the things that you and I kind of like, asked of each other is to not call it a training. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah. (chuckles)
Kai Gillespie
Right? Because it has certain connotations and it leads our mind during down the normal talent development. We need a training outline, we need this, we need that kind of model. And where’s the PowerPoint? (laughter) The idea of a training presupposes certain ideas in people’s mind. And so we called it for the longest time a learning experience. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. As a company, we’re still just like, we still wrestle with that. Like, it’s a learning experience. It’s a –
Kai Gillespie
It’s a learning experience. Just yeah, I call experiences. Growth opportunities or learning. Yeah. (laughs) So trying to put preconceived notions of what could be because oftentimes, even unintentionally, it leads your mind to answer certain questions. So one of the things that throws people off – Gilmara also loves it because she hates it, hates, you know, PowerPoints, but it’s that we don’t have any PowerPoints. Because yet again, it is tanamount that we show people that we are the experts in our story. You don’t need Exhibit A through Z, to show people. We are – we are the work. But if I called it a training from the beginning, I probably would have been like, well, we need a little something. A little, a little title, title slide or something. (laughter)
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s, you know, it’s, well, when we think about doing like, if we want people to think differently than we need to create the space that feels a little different too, right?
Kai Gillespie
So true.
Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s, you know, that’s part of it. And you know, whether that’s when I first started running the betas of it, (chuckles) it was like, we’re all just gonna sit in a circle with chairs and people were like, What the hell is this? Why are we walking into chairs? But I want to go back because I think it’s a really beautiful place for us to wind down our conversation on is like that quote from you of, We are the work. The PowerPoint isn’t. It’s like, it’s us. And that’s such a beautiful reminder. Kai, you’re such a treat. What is a the conversation you’ve had with yourself or someone else that was transformative for you?
Kai Gillespie
So I alluded to the fact that I was having like a really hard time at the same time I was working on this.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Kai Gillespie
And facilitating or leading these discussions and I also started therapy at the same time and hot damn, I took my childhood traumas right into the office.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) We all do.
Kai Gillespie
I feel like we don’t talk about that enough.
Sarah Noll Wilson
No, we all, we all carry our baggage.
Kai Gillespie
Right. When you’re having a hard time with others – or not even just hard time with others, just work in general. The office, organizations, man we need to look to our childhoods selves.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Kai Gillespie
Cause, eight-year-old Kai was just walking up in the office every single day. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s just. It’s ten-year-old Sarah.
Kai Gillespie
Yes! Right?! We just bring our old – when we say we bring our whole selves it’s not our like thirty-six-year-old self. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s all of us. It’s every version of ourselves.
Kai Gillespie
It’s her with a jello too. (laughter). It’s coming in with me. And so in order to show up as my best self and you know, you’re like, oh, like you’re like glowing and all this stuff. In order to be able to get there. I had to begin to unpack it. I had to address my childhood traumas. And so I know that you know, there are people in this world who still believe that mental health is something that does not affect how you show up in the workplace. Or that you leave your personal life at the door. And it’s not like I ever believed it but I didn’t know eight-year-old Kai was coming in too.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Kai Gillespie
I just thought my mental health, my, you know, what was going in my life at that moment, I didn’t realize my daddy issues was coming in with me.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure, yeah, yeah.
Kai Gillespie
And my abandonment issues. And that was taking forefront in how I dealt with others. And how I related to others. And how, you know, I showed up in that way.
Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s beautiful.
Kai Gillespie
Yes, that would be the one realization in the conversation I felt with myself and my therapist.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Kai Gillespie
Yeah. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Everyone needs a therapist. Everyone needs a really good therapist. Kai. Thank you for coming to the show. Thank you for being my friend. Thank you, for all of our journeys together. If people are interested in connecting with you to have conversations about development, about inclusion and belonging, about the state of women in hip hop, about this work you’re doing, what is the best way for people to connect with you?
Kai Gillespie
You know, I’m in the street.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) Just nodding my head quietly.
Kai Gillespie
Like, really. If you like. So like I say, yeah, you can connect with me on LinkedIn and like, sure, but like, I don’t, I’m not one of those like pictures everywhere LinkedIn people. I’m literally just like nodding my head. I like that, that was that was good. (laughter) But like, I’m available, I was just kind of just I don’t know, I’m on LinkedIn. I’m on Facebook. I’m on Instagram. I hardly share anything. But you know.
Sarah Noll Wilson
We’ll share your LinkedIn profile in the notes. You know, because if you’re interested in in, you know, just learning more about Kai’s journey and the work that she’s doing that’s so outstanding, definitely reach out to her. Just thanks, Kai.
Kai Gillespie
No problem.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Thanks for for being you and inviting me on this journey. And it’s – I love, I love how you’ve continued to evolve the work and they’re really, really lucky and fortunate to have you.
Kai Gillespie
I’m fortunate to have you in my circle, I feel like you have always embodied uplifting others. And it’s always been like a something that I have always been impressed by. And it always seems to just come so natural to you to share the microphone and give space to others. And yes, it’s the first time I met you with, you know, kissing the lizard was just like, Oh, she got it. (laughter)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Thanks. I appreciate that.
Kai Gillespie
And so now, seeing you. You got it. You got it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
You’ve supported me on my journey and right, like you’ve been, I mean, you literally we’re a part of, you know, baby, baby Sarah. And we’ve been able to help each other step into our whole selves, because it is just better. It’s so much better. And I you know, if you ever see Kai and I meet at a conference, there’s usually some kind of dance walk up to each other. And lots of hugs and yeah, yeah. So you’re, you’re amazing. I’m so, yeah, thank you for being on the show. My love.
Kai Gillespie
No problem.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Our guests this week has been Kai Gillespie. And one of the things I’m really holding on to is this idea of “we’re the work.” And that’s pushing me to think about how we facilitate our conversations now and some opportunities to better shine a light on that. So that’s something I’m definitely holding on to amongst the other things. But we also want to hear from you, what resonated, what came up for you, what questions are you thinking about? You can always reach out to me at podcast @ sarahnollwilson.com. And I will respond. Or you can send me a message on social media where my DMs are always open. I’m frequently found on LinkedIn these days. And if you haven’t already, please be sure to rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. This helps us increase exposure so that we can continue to bring on great guests like Kai Gillespie. And if you’re interested in supporting the show from a financial perspective, we also welcome that because it supports the team. You can do that by becoming a patron by going to patreon.com/conversations on conversations where not only you’ll support the team that makes the show possible, you’ll also get some pretty great swag.
Speaking of the team, let’s give a big shout out to the crew that helps make the show possible. So to our producer Nick Wilson, to our editor Drew Noll, to our transcriptionists Becky Reinert, to our marketing consultant, Jessica Burdg and the rest of the SNoWCo. crew. Thank you so much. And just another wholehearted thank you for Kai Gillespie for joining us today and sharing her journey on thinking about developing differently. This has been Conversations on Conversations. When we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So my friends, thank you for listening. Please be sure to rest, rehydrate and I’ll see you again next week
Sarah Noll Wilson is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. She aims to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching and Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health.