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Episode 080: A Year-End Conversation with Drew Noll and Nick Wilson

Drew Noll and Nick Wilson Podcast

Join Sarah Noll Wilson and the Conversations on Conversations crew for a special year-end reflection, as they discuss some of the conversations and insights that stood out the most to them in 2023.

 

About Our Guests

Drew Noll is the audio editor of Conversations on Conversations. He is an award-winning sound designer and musician, and he has years of experience as a UX Designer. He is also Sarah’s brother.

Nick Wilson is the producer of Conversations on Conversations. He works in media production, including a variety of collaborations with Sarah and the SNOWCO team. He is also Sarah’s husband. WEBSITE

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah Noll Wilson

Hello, and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson. And today, my friends, we have a very special episode. This is episode number 80. And not only is it the number 80, it’s going to be our last episode of 2023. Yep, we’re going to take a little bit of a break. But we’ll say more about that at the end of the episode. So to wrap up our year, we’re doing something a little different. You know, I’ve mentioned at the end of our close that there’s a whole team that makes this show possible. And so a couple of our colleagues, family members, spouses, they wear multiple hats (laughs) are joining me and because because we all listen to these episodes multiple times and have lots of conversations between us of, Oh, that was such a good point, or Wow, that one really resonated. So, without further ado, we’re gonna do a year in review. What were some of the key highlights that stuck with us, that changed us, that changed our thinking, and we want to invite you to do the same and let us know. So, okay, some of you already know Nick Wilson, Nick Wilson. Now I have to do the BIOS. Nick Wilson is a freelance videographer, animator, editor, artist. He is the father to our dog, Sally. (laughs) He is my husband and video produc – (laughs) father to our dog. That’s good.

 

Nick Wilson

I am her father.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

We’re off to a good start. (laughs) He’s our our podcast producer. He is the person who takes care of our guests. He is the one that makes sure that the show is moving along and that I’m not getting too far off track. Welcome to the show, Nick Wilson.

 

Nick Wilson

Thanks, Sarah. It’s a pleasure to be here.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Okay, and joining us for the first time is our sound editor Drew Noll. Drew Noll has years of experience as a UX designer. He is also an award winning sound designer. (laughs) Is that like?

 

Drew Noll

Yeah, yeah. I forgot that.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

I felt like I was saying designer twice. You are award winning. He is a fantastic musician, has an incredible ear for all things. He’s the reason that the podcast sounds as good as it does. And when things don’t go right makes it as good as we can (laughs) given the technology. He also moonlights as my brother. Welcome to the show, Drew Noll.

 

Drew Noll

It’s a pleasure to be here twin sister Sarah.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Aww. Welcome. Okay, since it’s the first time that we’ve done this, what else should people know about you Drew? I get to ask you the questions that you’ve heard me ask 80, 79 times.

 

Drew Noll

Yeah. Midwest born and raised. Married to a wonderful family. Got an awesome son. I’ve got a great, super smart dog that is just a great staple in the family. Like to hang out outside and yeah, much like all things sound. And I have a really wonderful family too.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

You do, we’re pretty great. I mean, you have to say that.

 

Drew Noll

Pretty great. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Cause we’re here. (laughs) Now, Nick, anything else you want people to know about you before we jump into this?

 

Nick Wilson

I don’t think ,I don’t think so. (laughter) I think people know plenty through, through context. Regular listeners know probably a lot about me.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Regular listeners know about you. And you know, Nick and I, we recorded an episode last year where we talked about our mental health journeys and being spouses and support for each other. So if you haven’t listened to that episode, I definitely recommend checking that out just because we had a real conversation about some real tough times that we’ve navigated. Okay, so here’s how this is gonna work, folks. Each of us have taken some time to think about what were some of the key highlights from the guests. Now, I want to be very clear, every single show that we air adds value. Every single guests that we have brought on we have brought on because they were somebody who we’ve already been impacted by, we’ve seen the impact that they’ve created in the world. We are also focusing just on this year, we didn’t open it up, which I didn’t realize it was 80. We could have opened it, well, we probably will. I mean, I mean, we’ll have to see where it goes. But (laughs) but I want to make sure that nobody feels like oh, they didn’t mention me. It wasn’t that it wasn’t valuable or a great episode. It just, for purposes –  I think I’ve picked only the best ones. (laughter) And I think if any of our past guests are listening and you’re not mentioned, boy, know that you really blew it. (laughs) Way to create some safety. (laughter) Way to just give the impression you’re a real piece of work, Nick.

 

Nick Wilson

I know, I know.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

It’s so not you. That’s what’s funny.

 

Nick Wilson

I kid, I kid.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

No, it was funny is when we started this we’re like, just pick your top three. Nick, how many did you pull?

 

Nick Wilson

I mean, on the list that’s in front of me. I have I have nine, I have nine listed. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Drew, how many did you pull? 

 

Drew Noll

Twelve. Maybe 13.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

(laughs) I have like, seven. And just plenty more that I’m sure will come up. So –

 

Nick Wilson

There’s, there’s way more, there’s way more than we can talk about in one episode. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Oh, yeah.

 

Nick Wilson

They all have some amazing takeaways. So it was hard to, it’s hard. I don’t I still don’t know which ones I’m going to talk about. Because I’ve just got my list here. I’m gonna, I’m gonna pick and choose as we go.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

One of the things I just want to say to our listeners is that the intention of this isn’t just to hear us. But from a learning perspective, as my colleague, Dr. Teresa Peterson would say, one of the greatest ways we can reinforce learning is to think about how our thinking has changed. And so the goal is, and us doing this, not only will we reinforce the learning for ourselves, but also be able to maybe inspire you to think about how has your thinking changed? What are you doing differently because of listening to some of these really incredible guests that we’ve been able to have over the last two years? And and also just to normalize like, yeah, your thinking will change, people will push it, maybe they’ll say something, and you’re like, oh, I hadn’t thought about that, or that was, you know, made me uncomfortable. And now I have to interrogate that. Okay, so without further ado, who wants to go first? How about number 12. Let’s start with, let’s start with the – you need to have a baker’s dozen, like add a 13 on there. And then we’ll just. (chuckles)

 

Drew Noll

Episode 80 is pretty great. So let’s, I’ll make that 13.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

(laughs) I just want to do a shout out.

 

Drew Noll

Super good guests. Super good guest on that one. I think I’m just gonna go right to it, 44 or 45.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Oh, gosh, you have numbers. Oh, yeah. Good. Yeah. Okay,

 

Drew Noll

  1. Maxine Woods-McMillan.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Oh, yeah.

 

Drew Noll

Really, really great. And that’s, that’s all of that, as I’m like comically taking notes. And like, you know, turning the pages and writing notes as much as possible, like I really digested a lot from that one. And there’s one line in particular that really stood out. And this is kind of a common phrase, I think, other ways of saying it too. But the line that is that we can’t let the people who know the least about us, like have the most power over us. And that’s such an easy concept, right? And it’s, there’s the whole, like, rent free phrase that’s out there too, but, but to to really give it a definition of those, those people or those situations or those events that know the least about you. And that’s really good. And to dig deeper into that it’s really to know, there’s a step of like a self exploration too that happens. So like, I need to know who I am, right? I need to be the person who knows the most about me. So there’s a lot of self reflection too that goes along with that and, and having the courage to do that. And sometimes that’s not easy to do and and then you do and then you sort of have that like armor or that power or that to, to let some of those things go or to give them less weight on us. So that was a pretty big one this year for me.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

That was, yeah, there – she’s on my list too. But for something else she, she was like –

 

Nick Wilson

I feel like we need to have just like a little Maxine, like just go through all the highlights of Maxine because yeah, I had a couple different things from – because she’s made multiple appearances this year.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

She has. Yeah, I – she was one of our first –

 

Drew Noll

Triple?

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Tree-fers, trifers. Threefers?

 

Nick Wilson

I don’t think trifers is anything.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

(laughs) It’s not a word. She’s the first person to be on the show three times. I’m like, trifers, like twofers.

 

Nick Wilson

I mean, you can take that one, you could coin that.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Okay, like I love it cuz she’s gonna hate listening to this. 

 

Drew Noll

(laughs)

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

You’re lying Sarah. And so Maxine, T. Maxine Woods-McMillan. Will you just sit here and listen and just receive all the flowers you deserve? That, yeah, well, and that that particularly feels resonant, right? Like just navigating some of the challenges I know you’re navigating with the little one. And it’s such a good reminder. And it is easy to be like, well, don’t let other people you know, – but sometimes you just need to hear it a different way to go. They like – I had forgotten she had said that and then as soon as you repeat it, I was like, Oh, right. When do I let the people who don’t know me, impact me? What comes up for you, Nick?

 

Nick Wilson

Yeah, same. I’d kind of forgotten that quote, particularly, but I had a whole list of other Maxine, (laughs) Maxine nuggets on my on my list. The one that had come to mind most readily because it was more recent, When she, her most recent appearance, when she talked about interrogating your thinking, and the idea of just as as – I mean, it’s such a, it’s such a valuable skill for any of us, like in any situation, like the ability to question your, like, pause and think about, like, Why do I think this thing that I think? Why do I believe the things that I believe, you know, and then beyond that, the idea that she had talked about, you know, who benefits from me believing this? Or who benefits from me, you know? I remember, she had talked about, you know, reading a story or getting information from a certain whatever source, it’s like, think about, you know, again, interrogate like, where is this coming from, who stands to benefit from me thinking this way? It’s just, I thought it was a tremendous, I mean, it’s just a, again, it applies in like, every situation has such a, like, core like, ability for people to have. Especially like, going into the future of like, you know, bizarre, AI, deep fake misinformation, whatever is going to be coming our way in the next however many years, like, the ability to discern, you know, what the sources are? What, what, how you’re getting that information? Where’s it coming from? Why does someone want me to think or believe this is true? It’s, it’s very powerful. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Yeah, yeah, that came up in the episode when we were talking about like, the whole work from home versus return to the office. And just like, yeah, when articles are written about, like, people hate working from home, like, who is that written by and for? You know, it’s interesting. Like, there’s something about hearing you share that one that something new came up for me, which is not only interrogating, you know, your thinking and interrogating who benefits from it? It’s also interesting to think about, as somebody who creates content, what am I creating? And who, who is benefiting from what I’m creating? And are the right people benefiting from it? Right? So like, and just just reflecting on my journey of, yeah, I write from a very, like my lived experience of being a white person, a white woman, working with largely white audiences. And like, you think, oh, yeah, no, I want this to benefit everyone. And realizing like it doesn’t always because it’s coming from a, like it was just interesting. There was something about how you were talking like that made me have a moment of like, not only reflecting on who’s the benefit for but also thinking when you’re creating content, who are you actually trying to benefit? Like not, who do you want to benefit? But who are you actually benefiting in the situation? 

 

Drew Noll

And the, word of the interrogation too, just to thow on the on the end of that, because she –

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Yeah!

 

Drew Noll

She’s really good about the words that she uses. And so like, the interrogation part is like, you need to be or, I don’t know about need, but like, if this is a journey that you are willing to explore that there’s a there’s a tenacity to it, right? So there’s like, there’s a, an active participation in the inbound and outbound of your relationship with information or how you’re processing things or saying things. So it takes words –

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Yeah, it’s more than just –

 

Drew Noll

So it’s not passive by any means. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Yeah, yeah. Cuz like reflection is like, well, and interrogating is also like, like looking for the cracks. It’s like looking for, looking for the spaces that you’re not normally seeing. It’s interesting, because I didn’t realize she’s who I got that language from, because I use that now in my work quite a bit like let’s like, interrogate. Like, what role are you playing? And, and actually, just today had the thought of when did that shift for me? And now I know, just another one to add to the Maxine pile. (laughter) Okay, like speaking of that episode, let’s, let’s go down to when I asked her, What questions would you want leaders to think about? And she had two, but one was particularly like, Would you live the life you’re asking your team members to live? 

 

Drew Noll

Oh man, that is a good one.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Was such a moment. And I’ve actually used that with clients who are like, I don’t know why people wouldn’t want to work in Customer Care. I don’t know why, you know, or whatever the case is, and then it’s just like, well my friend T. Maxine Woods-McMillan, she would ask this question. So how would you answer that? You know, and if the answer is – and now some people I know, I had somebody who pushed back on me like, that’s not a fair question. I was like, some part of it is fair, like some part of it is. Like, yeah, I understand you’ve worked for 30 years, you don’t expect to like, right be making the same kind of salary. But like, Would you be okay with the lifestyle that you’re asking your team members to live? And, and if not, again, interrogate that.  I have one more Maxine, because this is the one that I really wanted to –

 

Drew Noll

I think I might too. That brings up another one. But I don’t know if it’s her’s or not.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Do you?  My god, it this just gonna be us talking about her –

 

Drew Noll

Yeah.

 

Nick Wilson

We’ll just do the whole episode about Maxine.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

God, I can’t wait to send her a message. She’s gonna be like, shut up, stop it. You’re lying, and I’ll be like, we’re not!

 

Drew Noll

And correct me if I’m wrong but if I had to put money, it’s probably hers. But the, and it was one of the more recent episodes that I feel like the phrase was from, it was observing leadership versus management and the culture of like, influence and impact and the statement was, If you didn’t have the influence, or the impact that comes with positional power, would you still be a leader?

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

That was Cris.

 

Drew Noll

Was it Cris?

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

That was Cris Wildermuth. Yeah.

 

Drew Noll

That’s a that’s blowing my mind. And I’ve shared that with so many people. And that, that I’ve said that to some people, and and they’ve gotten real quiet, which is like, yeah, all right. Cool. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Yeah. That was that. Yeah. That was Dr. Cris Wildermuth. Because and the reason I know that so definitively, is because she shared that with Teresa and I, when we were not recording, and it completely like, we talk, we use that in our work all the time. Yeah. Like, if you didn’t have the formal authority, would people follow you? And it’s just like, oh, f– like, and if, again, if the answer is no, interrogate that, like, yeah.

 

Drew Noll

I could talk about Cris too for a whole five hours, probably. (laughter) That’s another one. Cris is great.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

She is, she’s so great. Well, and you know, and that idea of like, kind of tagging onto that. You know, we talked about that. Yeah, that idea of it was like authority versus leadership versus followership and how we don’t talk enough about followership and you know, and, or even just the simple question, why should people follow you? Right? You know, she’s the one who gave, and I don’t know if this came up in the podcast, or I think it may have, just that idea of leadership is inspiring people without coercion. 

 

Drew Noll

Yeah. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

That last part is real, it’s real interesting to think about that not just in the workplace, but also with family, with your kids, with your spouse, like, am I inspiring somebody to take action without coercing them? Whether it’s because of humiliation, shame, guilt, whatever the case might be? Yeah.

 

Drew Noll

That’s really good. That that changed my approach at work. And, you know, I don’t know if I have specific examples of it, but I leaned on the side of maybe, maybe I am, maybe I am either intentionally or unintentionally coercing somebody or group of people in a certain level. And so, you know, taking a step back and really like putting that word onto it, and processing things and being more intentional about the words and the impact, and then, I’ll bring that up in another example that I have for another guest. But yes, good.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Well, that’s, that’s such a good, I mean, you know, just just like we were teasing out Maxine’s use of interrogate, coercion has, it has heat to it, you know, and then when you go, No, I don’t do that. You sure? And it’s not a question of not doing it. It’s like when when do I do that? How do I do that? 

 

Drew Noll

And then why? Right?

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

And why? Yeah, geez. And why do I do that? Like, (quietly) cuz I just want people to do what I say. Oh, okay. Okay, there we go. Let’s explore that. (laughs) Okay, wait, I have to go back real quickly to Maxine’s because the one there’s just one that I have to share that I – was such such a (laughs) fundamental shift.

 

Drew Noll

You have a T. Maxine mug? I don’t. (laughter)

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Is when she called me out. She said, You keep talking about avoidance like it’s something you just like set aside and then and then she laid the gem in our first episode with her this year. You don’t avoid conflict, you just replace or reposition it. You replace it with like, you reposition it internally, you shift it to someone else, it doesn’t, it doesn’t go away and (laughs) this didn’t make it onto the podcast that she and I had a conversation afterwards. I feel like this is real timely because of coming off the holidays. She’s like, sometimes I like to talk about it as if like, you know when you go on vacation, you eat all that yummy food and you just keep packing it in and packing it in and packing it in. Like, it’s got to come out at some point. (laughter) And if you just keep packing it in. Now, to be clear, she gave like a 12 minute like, beautiful like story around it. But, but that like really shifted that – she was one of many, many people we talked to that has shifted my work around avoidance pretty dramatically. Right? No, you don’t avoid it. It’s still there. It’s just taken a different form. And don’t be naive about that. I mean, I have that quote, her quoted, I feel like anytime I talk about our work on elephants, so T. Maxine Woods-McMillan. We love you.

 

Drew Noll

Yeah, I’m ready to go to the next one. Yeah, okay. Yeah. I’m ready.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

You ready? You want to the next one or Nick you want to do one? Here, kick us off Nick. What’s –

 

Nick Wilson

Oh, yeah, I’ll do one. See, I feel like this has – I listen to too many baseball podcasts because I feel like this is like a draft. Like we’re drafting. (laughter) Like, Andy, Andy took Maxine off the board. Okay, I gotta go to my, I gotta go to my draft board here. (laughter) No, but I, I guess, man, yeah, I haven’t decided who I want to go. Okay, I’m gonna go to Dr. Tina Opie. Because that was just a fantastic conversation, this is one of them that like going back, and I gotta do a little bit about, you know, going back and reflecting and re listening to, you know, portions of some of these that have been a little while. And, man, that it’s just that whole conversation. There were a few highlights that I had written down the, one that I know, Sarah, you still bring up that we mentioned or think about a lot is the idea of bias being like a bird flying through your mind. And the idea is, you know, see it, let it fly through, recognize it for what it is, but don’t let it nest. The idea of don’t let that bird nest in your in your mind is such a, such a brilliant way of – I just feel like she had a handful of these things that are just brilliant. Similar to Maxine, it’s like, just the way that she worded some of these things that maybe are, you know, familiar concepts or things that you think about, but putting it in that language and giving that kind of the visual, kind of, you know, imagination of that of that bird flying through your mind, I just thought was a really powerful thing. And like I said, I know, it’s something that we’ve come back to over and over again. The other things that I wrote down from that conversation, If you have power use it. And then this idea of, you know, if you, if we increase the pie, then everybody gets more. Basically the idea of like, equity and like the kind of fighting that scarcity mindset or feeling like, you know, if we, if we try to, you know, give this group over here or these people, you know, something, then it’s taking away from me. If I’m, if I’m a person, you know, in a group that has status or power or whatever, you know, something for, the purpose of equity is, feels like it’s taking something away from me, instead of looking at it as increasing what we all, you know, like, it’s going to make us better. If it’s an organization that you’re talking about, you know, broadening things, having more people, have more opportunities, having more people’s voices heard, what have you, is going to increase and better the things for everyone. Just a, really, I feel like that whole conversation in terms of it’s everyone’s, it’s everyone’s job, kind of, everyone has a part to play, everybody’s got a responsibility to take part actively in like, creating equity and being – using, again, using the power that you have. So if you’re, if you are a person who has has power or status based on whatever it is, whether it’s positional power or based on you know, the group that you belong to, or whatever it is, recognizing what power you have, and using that power to, you know, better things, ideally for everyone. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Yeah. Because that can, I mean, it can be it can be so challenging, it can feel so risky, to speak up, to step out to do whatever and realizing – well, and just I’m thinking again as like a white person, it feels risky, but the risk is very low. It’s very different for us. And so like, how, how do we step into that more? Well, and yeah, the whole bias is like a bird, just don’t let it nests, that, not only just that idea of bias, the time when we interviewed her was when I was just figuring out that I had OCD. And that phrase was such a powerful visual for my intrusive thoughts too. Was like, there it is, I don’t need to let it nest. So Dr. Tina Opie, know that you, that was a real gift to me in a pretty hard time that I was going through. You know, one of the other things, well, gosh, there was so much. But I remember, one of the things I just really appreciated is her willingness to push back on me, and when we are talking about this idea of people struggling with the the concept of privilege, and like, that some people, particularly those who may be have like dominant identities, right? So, you know, white, male, heterosexual, Christian, right? And how it’s like, well, yeah, but I had to suffer too. And I always struggled to be able to articulate to people. Yeah, you did. This isn’t minimizing it. And then she like she pushed me, she said, but you didn’t struggle because you were white. And that was such an important moment of her calling that out so clearly. And like not only articulating it for other people, but also for myself to be like, right, yeah, we didn’t grow up with a ton of money. Our challenges had nothing to do with the color of our skin. And then the other thing that she said, was, I think, I think I was, I was talking about how, like, we’re so conditioned, I was so conditioned that you like your goal was to be liked. And she was like, not being liked is just another Thursday to me. I want to be respected. And I was just like, right. Yep. You know, like that. Yeah, that was just that was such a. That was a big fan girl, like interview for me too, because I just loved her books so much, Shared Sisterhood.

 

Nick Wilson

Yeah. That was a really good one. A lot of that stuck with me. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Okay. Do I get to go next? 

 

Drew Noll

Yes. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Are we doing counterclockwise? 

 

Nick Wilson

Oh, is it a snake draft? Do we have – so y`ou get the third pick in the first round? And the first pick in the second round? I don’t know. We didn’t really establish the rules up front.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

(laughs) I think my team was terrible. So I get like –

 

Nick Wilson

(laughs) Yeah, you had the worst record last season. So you, you get, you get a bonus pick in this round.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Okay, I mean, yeah. All right. So I’m gonna – here’s what I’m gonna go with next that I think is on theme for what we’ve been talking about was Elaine Lin Hering, on Unlearning Silence. That is one that I’ve gone back and listened to. I have gone back and reread her book. I think I recommend every time I’m in a group of humans to buy that book when it comes out in March. So here’s your next, like, promotional push, pre order Elaine Lin Herings book Unlearning Silence. And I had like, so many pages of notes. But again, talking about the power of language. Thinking about so much of the work that we do is about helping people have the conversations that matter and I would use the term avoidance, you know, even the book title of Don’t Feed the Elephants! is overcoming the art of avoidance, right? It’s, it’s, you know, to be kind of kitschy clever, but I love that idea of silence. And how are we silencing ourselves? And more importantly, how are you silencing other people? That, that was so powerful for me, because you know, when I think about my work with my my coach, Stephanie Chin helping me become a more inclusive leader. That’s a conversation we’ve had before of like, as a woman of color, as an Asian woman, when she’s in our spaces where it’s largely white women, she feels silenced. And some of it isn’t necessarily us silencing. Right, some of it can be and is, but some of it is like self silencing, because it’s like it’s too big of a risk for me to speak up. And they’re just like that conversation connected a lot of dots for me about other conversations and and just even thinking about that idea of voice. How do I give voice to more people and also how do I step into my voice more? But that, yeah, I just – that whole idea of like, the whole thing of silence still is just like seared on my heart.

 

Drew Noll

That was one of mine too.

 

Nick Wilson

That feels like – I was gonna say that feels like another one you talked a little bit ago about the conversations impacting your work, and I feel like that’s one that inevitably is going to continue to impact the work, you know, especially like you said, talking about avoidance, talking about the elephants, and it is such a natural kind of progression, or even just a different way of reframing that that idea, you know, using different language. But yeah, I feel like, that’s something. It’s something I had reflected on as we were, as I was going through all these different ones, and kind of realizing how much the, because I get to see, you know, I guess for the listeners, if people don’t know, –

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

They don’t know.

 

Nick Wilson

I, I, you know, part of my other job is that I am involved in the, you know, virtual workshops and things, keynotes that Sarah does. And so I get a little glimpse into, you know, the work as it’s being done with different groups and teams, and seeing the way that the conversations that you’ve had on this show, on this podcast with various people and various different topics have impacted that work. It’s a pretty cool thing. I mean, it’s, you know, there are a whole variety of reasons I think that, that you have a podcast. That you want to have these conversations that, you know, that drive the desire to do this show. But I think that’s a pretty cool side effect of doing all this that like that. It’s evolving and growing, the work that you’re doing, too.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Yeah. Because it’s like, because the mark that every guest brings, grows and evolves us as people. That it isn’t, Oh, like, how do we steal their stuff? Because, (laughter) no, I mean, to be honest, like, sometimes that happens, which is why I will say, I’m super passionate about making sure I quote people. Making sure that it’s like, you need to know that this came from this person, buy this person’s books. And I’m also just reflecting like, what are other ways I can give back because it again, I feel like, I think like, often I’m on some of the episodes, and I’m like, I feel like I should send you money, like, invoice me for the therapy you just gave me. And, you know, and also, I think, I think that’s important to state also just for for potential past guests that have been on the show is, understand how significant your ripple has been. Right? Understand that you showing up and sharing your gifts and your wisdom has such a huge impact, not just on listeners, but it creates this ripple impact, right? Like, Andy, you talked about, like, oh, yeah, I quoted this person. And then I’m like, telling them at work. And it’s this huge, huge ripple effect. I also like just want to say, this is also why it’s really important to be in conversations with people who are different than you. People who have different lived experiences, people who have different perspectives and expertise. Because like, I’m, I know my world really well. But that means there’s a whole lot of the world I don’t know. And and hopefully that’s something that the listeners benefit from as well. Yeah. Unlearning Silence, Elaine Lin Hering, March 2024.

 

Drew Noll

That was a really good one, there was the multi prong approach to silence and, you know, the the good definitions and the bad definitions and how we can give them as gifts to people when we’re in, you know, intimate conversations. Remind me was that the episode where somebody mentioned, like waiting for the question mark? Was that hers? Or was that a different one? It was more recent one.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Say more about it, and it will trigger something.

 

Drew Noll

It was letting a conversation, especially from the standpoint of a leader, is to let let the other person speak, you know, there’s no need to inject yourself. There’s no need to like control a situation and wait for your question mark, or wait for the person to say a question and maybe it wasn’t even on the show, but I feel like that’s something that came up recently. But anyway, so there’s that wait for the question mark.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Okay, that was episode 80. Drew Noll everyone. Let’s talk about that quote, live!

 

Drew Noll

Great guest, great guest.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Live! It’s happening.

 

Drew Noll

Yeah, there’s a lot of really great stuff around the silence. And that was that was another one where you know, I’d be here and I’d be mixing it and then I would just zone out and then realize that the time, you know the the cursors three minutes into the thing, I gotta I gotta get back and work on that because I’m just sitting and digesting it for so long. That was a good one. Thanks, Elaine. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

All right. Yeah. Thanks, Elaine. Oh, yeah, we should thank people. Thanks, Cris. Thanks, Maxine. Thanks. Okay. You’re up Drew, round draft pick.

 

Nick Wilson

(laughs) We should probably abandon the draft analogy –

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

I was ready to abandon it as soon as you mentioned it. (laughter) I’m just kidding. (laughs) I wasn’t, no. (laughs)

 

Drew Noll

Speaking of silence.

 

Nick Wilson

It’s just my mindset.

 

Drew Noll

Episode 62, Jen Fisher.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Oh, yeah.

 

Drew Noll

Human sustainability has completely changed literally every relationship that I have. Personal, work, my own marriage, my son, and really putting the energy and the chips into, not what we do, but really how we do it. And really the truly the deepest user experience of the of the folks around us. And from a management standpoint, you know, it’s nice to have people want to stick around and and continue to work with you. Right? And so that’s been a huge, huge thing for for my job and, and hearing, you know, the folks that I work with, and hearing them use that terminology issue of human sustainability. And like, how are you? Like, how are you doing this work? What can you know, what can we do as a team or as co workers to, to make your experience more fulfilling or safe, or whatever the spectrum is, right. But it’s just, it yields human sustainability and wanting to maintain what you have in a positive and positive, impactful way. Huge for me, life changing.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Yeah, that’s, it’s interesting, because it’s, like, I remember first hearing about that phrase, and being like, Oh, that feels real technical and transactional, and then it’s just like, but it’s a way to tap into people who might not think about it. otherwise. It’s a way of tapping into, you know, thinking about it much more broadly. It makes me think about our conversations as a team just today. And Teresa was, like, just gotta understand, most companies are designed to eat your soul. And so like, and you know, and then we are talking about some changes we’re making. She’s like, can we just celebrate that our company has not eaten any of our souls yet, like, we should feel pretty good about this. But yeah, that idea of sustainability. That was really interesting.

 

Drew Noll

It’s fun and exciting, too, because it’s not just a, this happens, you respond in this way. And then this is the end result, right? So maybe at a high level, but the fact that it’s the differences between each person, what feeds each person and keeps them going and brings that joy for them, is really what makes it most exciting for me. And, and, and really learning how to do what I can to support other people to get them to a place of whatever that is that yields, but there’s no rule, right? You can’t follow. There’s no instructions for it. It takes really, really intentional work. And, and a lot of trust, and commitment. Thanks, Jen.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Thanks, Jen.

 

Nick Wilson

Thanks, Jen. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

(laughs) 

 

Nick Wilson

I feel like we all have to thank everyone. I don’t want to be left out of the thanking.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Well, and then I feel like at the end, we just need to pull up the list of everyone. 

 

Nick Wilson

Yeah. We should.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Maybe I do that on that on – we should actually I can bring it up on the phone. I’ll do it when we get to that point. Nick, you’re up. 

 

Nick Wilson

Oh, great. Yeah. I, I have to talk about Dr. Jason Frischman. The conversation on men and men’s mental health. There were a number of things in that conversation that stuck with me. And that resonated really strongly for me. You know, as Sarah mentioned, and as some listeners might remember, we had a conversation previously about our, you know, being, supporting one another as as partners in our various mental health challenges. And, yeah, just I mean, it’s it’s a refreshing thing just to hear anyone talk about honestly because it is still there are challenges that are all around and that are built into how men view themselves, how we’re expected to be. There’s just a lot. There’s a lot that we learn through, you know, our whole upbringing, from the time that we’re born, whether we want to or not. And his discussion of a couple of different things. One, the, he talked about the hero’s journey, as being this kind of dominant, he called it an omnipresent cultural story. And the idea that that story is sort of the the only acceptable, you know, thing for men to kind of strive for is like, this is how your life should be. This is what you should be, you know, seeking is to like, go achieve this epic thing and that by doing some thing and achieving, that is what kind of gives your life meaning. And the idea that, that, that being such a dominant cultural story is suppressing and silencing other stories. And that that language is, so, it has stuck with me, and that’s something I had never thought about. But the idea that, like, he, he made the comparison or the comment that, you know, celebrating going out and doing the epic thing, it’s denigrating staying home and doing the dishes, or, you know, other examples of like – there are, there are any number of ways that, that we might find meaning as individuals. But the fact that, you know, there’s this expectation or this kind of cultural norm around like, particularly for men, what is kind of expected, what you’re expected to be, how you’re expected to be. The expectation of, you know, having the drive to go and achieve, you know, some some epic thing. It just, yeah, it was really powerful for me. It was, it really hit home with a lot of the things that I’ve kind of had to untangle and continue to work through, you know, in my own mental health and kind of trying to scrape away the societal expectations, gender norms, all those things. So, yeah, just that that whole conversation, but that was one, one piece of it that that really stuck out for me was the idea of that story that we’re kind of told in so many forms, and then it’s just everywhere, and what stories don’t we hear? Or, you know, don’t we see as even, like, potentially viable options for how to be?

 

Drew Noll

And the list of the things to not do is equally long, if not longer too. Yeah, so I’m learning that is, that’s a big deal. And it’s been beneficial for my relationship with you, Nick. Right? And so we’ve been, we’ve gotten really close. And I feel like we were able to share a lot of stuff. And so I’m grateful for that.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

You can lean into it, boys, you can lean into it. It’s okay. 

 

Nick Wilson

Yeah, we have. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Yeah, no, I know. It’s a, you know, and he said, How many of the guys he works with wouldn’t have anyone, if something happened to their, is particularly in like, heterosexual relationships, that they wouldn’t have anyone if something happened to their wife, which is so sad to me. Because, like, I feel like I have this incredible community of amazing, particularly amazing women, you know, and, and there’s such a cost to the expectations of what it is to be a man to men. 

 

Nick Wilson

Yeah, I think that might have been another – I might be remembering this wrong, but I feel like there was another comment that he made about something along the lines of like, the patriarchy doesn’t help any or it’s hurting all of us, you know, it’s hurting men too.

 

Drew Noll

Yeah.

 

Nick Wilson

A lot of times you hear people, you know, the kind of, talking about the patriarchy, and rightly so is, you know, tilted towards or mostly referring to kind of the way that women have been, you know, held down or oppressed or less than, and, but it’s also true that nobody, like just nobody’s benefiting from it, you know. It’s, it is harming men to behave or to, you know, view themselves in this kind of restricted way. And, yeah, it’s it’s really difficult. There are, there’s so much, so much kind of built into, you know, you get it whether you want it or not, the messages of what, what it means to be a man. Yeah. That was a good one. I feel like I do to go back and re listen to that that whole episode at some point because there was a lot really stuck with me. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

It’d be really neat. I think we’ve talked about like, you know, get Nick Papadopoulos back on, get Doctor Frischman, like have a bunch of guys, you know, guys just having a conversation about this and just talking about those challenges. It’s you know, it was interesting, I was on a show, What’s The DEIL? D E I L. Like, today and we were talking about why do we think it’s so difficult for organizations to make a shift towards a more human perspective? And there’s no one answer to that obviously. Capitalism wasn’t meant for fulfilling people’s, I don’t know, best selves as humans, but one of the things that I hypothesized is you largely have white men in power, who have been conditioned to not know how to nurture and be in relationship with other people. And to be the hero, to be the, you know, like, independent, you know, we don’t in America anyway. Most American culture, I won’t say all, is very like individual, not communal, right. Like all of that stuff. And it’s yeah, it’s just, it is. Yeah, both of those. Both of those episodes were so good. Thanks, Dr. Frischmann. 

 

Nick Wilson

Thank you Dr. Frischman.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Thanks, Jason.

 

Drew Noll

Thank you Dr. Frischman.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Okay, it’s my turn. Ah, where do I go? Okay, one actually came up that I didn’t originally have on my list, but came up when Andy, you were talking about Jen Fisher. And that –

 

Nick Wilson

Andy is another thing that we call Drew.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Oh, sorry. Oh, I’m sorry, Drew.

 

Nick Wilson

I’m bound to do it at some point too.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

I’m part of the inner circle. That’s just how I knew him when he was born. I wasn’t there when he was born. I came after he was born. (laughter)

 

Nick Wilson

This is all getting very confusing. Conversations on Conversations lore, Sarah as the time traveler. (laughter)

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Carolon Donnally, talking about burnout. And one of, one of the things you, Nick, you and I still like have moments of practicing this.

 

Nick Wilson

Yep, this is on my list too.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Is it? Should I talk about it? Or should you talk about it? 

 

Nick Wilson

Yeah, go ahead.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Okay, add to it. But one of the things she said is, you know, we, when people go to the weekend, we ask them, What are you doing? What activity are you doing? What like, what are you keeping yourself busy with? What tasks, what? And we don’t ask, like, how are you going to be this weekend? And that was so profound. Let me when you were talking about like Jen Fisher. I was like, oh, yeah, right! Because that is something when Nick and I’ve gone on trips, how do we want to be? Or we try to catch it on the weekends. Just like, how do we want to be this weekend? We want to be connected, we want to be rested, we want to, you know, move with ease, or whatever the case is, but that was such a, you know, I’ve heard the whole being doing before, right? Like, we’re not human doings. We’re human beings like, like, I hear that a lot. It’s kind of in one ear out the other because I’ve heard it so much. And how she said that of like the positioning of that kind of similar phrase. And I to be clear, I don’t want to discredit, because I know that that was really resonant for you, Nick. We’re not human doings. We’re human beings. So I don’t want to dismiss or minimize. That was something that I was familiar with. So it didn’t resonate for me in the same way as you. So her then like applying it in that really like consistent thing we do. Oh, what are you doing this weekend? I just, I just asked it today to somebody. Oh, what are you doing for Christmas? Instead of like, how do you want to be? So that’s one. What do you want to add Nick?

 

Nick Wilson

No, that’s yeah, that was my I had that exact same thing written down and was thinking about that same thing. Like you said, it’s changed the way that we talk to each other. And yeah, the idea that one of the things that she said, I wrote down a quote that she said, which is, If you’re not doing something, then it is like a mark on your worth. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Oh gosh, yes.

 

Nick Wilson

And that is I remember being just struck by that because it is, you know, it’s just baked into the question, what are you doing? What do you you know, what are you up to this weekend? What do you what do you got going on? Like, we have to have something going on, or there’s, we’re like, if we’re just existing, we’re not creating, you know, value somehow. And so, yeah, it’s a it’s a really powerful reframe. And yeah, I catch myself doing it all the time. I think just you know, again, because it is such a default, but we don’t have to, we don’t have to always be doing things. To be, you know, to have worth.

 

Drew Noll

Hearing her say the how phrase there was like a, like a Neo in the Matrix event for me. Where you hear the sentence and you download it and you’re like, I know kung fu. You know. (laughter) Like it opens up this whole other part of whatever. That was, that was pretty impactful for me too.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Yeah. Yeah, we’ve definitely we, we’ve adopted that. Not always, but we often or I find myself catching myself with us in particular, like, oh, what are we going to know? How are we going to be this weekend? How do we, you know?

 

Nick Wilson

Yeah, it’s not like necessarily that it’s like a destructive question to ask in and of itself. But it is–

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

It’s just a default question.

 

Nick Wilson

It is like realizing how because that is like, yeah, that’s such a default and such a like, standard question. You realize how much we just undervalue like, you know, the fact that we can exist, we can have time where we rest and recharge, or we, you know, just our being, and it doesn’t, doesn’t always have to be, we don’t even have to have a project. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Yeah. Yeah. 

 

Nick Wilson

I love not having projects. That’s one of my favorite. One of my favorite pastimes.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

(laughs) I’m pro that some of the time. (laughter) And that is not, that is just my brain. We all have different. Yeah, we all have different needs and ways of being. It’s just my brain. I need a different level of stimulation in my being, not necessarily like, because I don’t, I don’t finish most of my projects I start. I just want to start, I just want to think about projects actually, is what I want to do. Alright, Drew? 

 

Nick Wilson

Well, thanks. Thank you, Carolon Donnally.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Thank you, Carolon.

 

Drew Noll

Episode number 71. Is it Katrina Jones? 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Oh, yeah. Katrina Jones. She’s great.

 

Drew Noll

I think this was her quote. There, there’s a, there were a few great ones in that. I wrote this down and actually wrote the little quotes. And I said, “It’s hard to to sustain uniqueness, when conformity is what’s rewarded.” Wooh!

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

I can’t remember if that was her or not, I assume. But that’s a good one. 

 

Drew Noll

Katrina, if it’s not yours, I’m sorry. But you are amazing. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

I can’t remember if it was her or Elaine. Say it again. Say that quote again. Because I do remember that one.

 

Drew Noll

So there’s two parts of it. So there’s, I mean, that was the main focus was, which is it’s hard to sustain uniqueness when conformity is what’s rewarded. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Yeah. 

 

Drew Noll

And another part of that, and I don’t know what the order was. But I think her example’s when we when when joining, joining an organization or joining a project, or seeing how a group of people or leadership or enterprise, or whatever it is, articulate and manage their teams or projects or whatever, that how they say things and how they run and lead their teams celebrates how it’s how it’s worked in the past, and how that may not be something that’s going on here. So the whole concept of like celebrating something with the words and how we say them, and what we’re carrying forward or changing. And that intentionality was just a really cool concept. Like, what are you celebrating by saying that? That’s cool.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Yeah, yeah. It’s, I think that that’s a concept that like is easy. Well, like, we will say, you know, your culture is what you do, don’t do, say, don’t say, what you celebrate and what you tolerate. And like, yeah. The, the conformity being rewarded. You know, what’s interesting is, though, like, actually, maybe it’s the same thing. Like we were talking with our friend Dave, who is like, who lives out in LA, and you know, and he was like, if you’re not loud and unique, you don’t get attention. But on some level, that’s the conformity of that culture and system out there as well. Like, yeah, she’s so great. And we’ve had her on twice. And she always just like, I always appreciate her honesty and vulnerability. I mean, she spoke so, so tenderly, and also candidly about her recent divorce in a way that I think we don’t often talk about, you know, I know that that was something Nick and I talked about it like, oof that I had to have been hard. And –

 

Nick Wilson

I had a note about about Katrina, that exact thing about her. There are a couple of them that I that I marked down, whether it was a specific quote or something that I wanted to talk about, but just the fact that it was such a vulnerable, like, share and vulnerable conversation and just the courage to, you know, be willing to share about things that are personal. Katrina was one, Neha was another one that, I’m gonna start dropping some of these, because I know we’re not going to have a chance to talk about all of them. But Neha is another one was like, just such a, just giving such an amazing kind of glimpse into, you know, her struggles and what she goes through, and it’s, you know, just kind of eye opening to, just to hear other people’s perspectives and to try and, you know, understand some some portion of what, what people are going through, and it takes people being open and honest and sharing vulnerably about those things in order for us to, to hear it. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was a great one. 

 

Nick Wilson

So thank you, Katrina, and Neha. Thank you Katrina and Neha. 

 

Drew Noll

Thank you Katrina –

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Katrina Jones and Neha Sampat. Who’s turn is it?

 

Nick Wilson

I’ve forgotten whose turn it is. I don’t remember where –

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Andy, Andy just or Drew just went.

 

Drew Noll

Andyrew.

 

Nick Wilson

Oh, is it my turn then? 

 

Drew Noll

Yeah.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Yeah, I think so. (laughter) I’m just smiling a little bit going like that’s gonna be a short episode. 

 

Nick Wilson

Yeah, I know you thought that. Yeah. Un huh. I, okay, so now I have to pick who okay, which one? Because this is like going to be last.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Oh, is it last?

 

Nick Wilson

I mean, it’s coming up on an hour coming up in an hour, I should probably wrap things up. That’s the producer, producer slash guest in me, that’s, you know. Well, I’ll go, I’ll go to what, to me is another, like, powerhouse guest and episode of just like, just reflecting on like, the whole conversation, which is Beth Shelton, –

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

I have her on my list too.

 

Nick Wilson

Talking about her, her experience and her take on leadership and like bold decision making. And, you know, honestly, like most of the most of the ones that really, most of the conversations and the topics that really resonate for me personally, because I’ve never been in like a corporate world environment. I’ve been, I guess, fortunate to have existed outside of that kind of framework –

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

In the house. Never having to see light. 

 

Nick Wilson

Yeah, (laughs) I love that.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Not being fed after midnight. (laughs)

 

Nick Wilson

I am sort of Mogwai of sorts. But I but because of that, like a lot of the a lot of the conversation topics that revolve around kind o.f workplace culture and leadership, and those things maybe aren’t as resonant for me personally as like, you know, things like mental health or things that are more applicable or feel more applicable to kind of personal challenges for me or what have you. That said, listening to Beth Shelton talk about leadership. I mean, I, I would follow her I want, I want, I came away from that just thinking I, if everyone in a position of power and authority, everyone who gets to make decisions that impact other people could be more like Beth Shelton, I think, you know, we’d be in a lot better shape. Just overall. Right. Beth Shelton, for president, basically.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Oh man, I would, I would give all of my money to see her run for office.

 

Nick Wilson

Just amazing. You know, a couple things that I noted specifically, we start with reasons not to adopt a radical idea, you know, and her her kind of flipping the script and saying, What if we had to do it this way? 

 

Drew Noll

Oh, yeah. 

 

Nick Wilson

To really push people to say like, okay, it’s easy. It’s the default to say like, No, that’ll never work. You know, this thing that you’re bringing this, this is too far out there. We’re not, we can’t, you know, we can’t do it because XYZ. Instead of saying, okay, scratch all that. Pretend for a minute, you know, we have to do it this way. How would we do it? And like, open yourself up to, you know, that ideating process of like, okay, well, let’s force ourselves to consider this. And you know, what do you know, maybe there’s a, maybe there’s a way, maybe this actually doesn’t make sense. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Yeah. What was also so powerful about that, is that it wasn’t her asking people to think about that for an idea she was advocating for. Someone on the team brought up the idea of the babies at work, and she initially pushed against it herself. And I love when we get to see people talk about oh, yeah, no, I was resistant to it. And then I started to interrogate my thinking, and invited others to do the same. And that, that was part that was so powerful for me that it wasn’t –

 

Nick Wilson

Yeah. It wasn’t her pet project. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

It wasn’t her pet project. It wasn’t her passion. She actually was resistant to it, and then got pushed pushed herself and then pushed other people. 

 

Nick Wilson

Right. Yeah, a couple other just notes that I had on that conversation. Empathy is not the opposite of accountability. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Yeah, oh yeah.

 

Nick Wilson

That was a really, just a really powerful kind of way of phrasing, you know, because you had talked about, you’ve talked about many times the idea that, you know, leaders or people that have have come to you with this concern that maybe I’m going to be too empathic, can you be too empathetic? Isn’t that a danger of being too empathetic? And, and her kind of pushing back on that to say that, you know, you can be empathetic and also hold people accountable. And that’s not, those two things are not at odds. And I think there’s a tendency to think that they are. And then the last thing I had noted was the, the idea of fix the culture, don’t delete the word. When she talked about, you know, they would do something like word clouds, where people gave their, you know, words to describe, maybe the culture, the workplace and that it can be easy to look at that and see a word on there and think, well, I don’t like, you know, I don’t like that that’s on there. It could be easy to say, well, I’m gonna just want to take that out, you know, delete that word, because that doesn’t feel good. But her, you know, realization or talking about fix the culture, that there’s a reason that word is on there. So taking the word off of there doesn’t make it you know – it’s the thing that you talked about Sarah, about, like, the words on the wall, you know, if you want to say that we have this kind of culture, and you know, whatever it is, this workplace, this, you know, family, whatever group or whatever, kind of, you know, relationships. If you want to, you know, think of yourself and put yourself out there as having this certain kind of culture. You can talk about that. But if you’re not, you know, if that’s not how it’s actually playing out, then that’s the reality, people are living in the reality. And you have to, you know, address it as such. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Yeah. Which requires like, reflecting on the role you play. This wasn’t in her interview, but I want to give a shout out to Natalie Norfus, who was on the show, and I was on her show today. And we were talking about how easy it is for people to just, you know, like in a situation like that to blame the team members or whatever. And she’s like, no, they’re, they’re disengaged because of your actions. They’re disengaged because of what you are doing. That’s why they’re disengaged, you know, and just that idea, yeah, I yeah, I had her on my list. She was great. Okay.

 

Nick Wilson

Thank you Beth Shelton. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Thank you, Beth. Thank you. Oh, I just get one? Can I do, I’m gonna do a quick, honorable mention. (laughter)

 

Nick Wilson

You’re like, you’re like appealing to us to change the rules of this. This is your show. We don’t, I don’t – you tell us if you’ve got five more rounds of this draft and we just don’t know about it.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Okay. Okay, two quick shout outs. And then I’ll give my final, –

 

Nick Wilson

We can do a lightning round.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Do a lightning round? Here, two Lightning Rounds and then then a deeper dive. (laughter) Jeff Anderson, our friend from Moose Jaw. I love the story he shared about the individual who is like, I don’t like coming into work. And it’s largely because of you. And his role modeling of how easy it could have been for him to be like, Well, screw you. I’m the CEO, you, and he got really curious. I just want to give a shout out to that. Because I love seeing when people who not only have positional authority, but also have identity authority, role model for the rest of us what it looks like to be pushed. What it looks like to be intellectually humble. What it looks like to take ownership for your impact. So that’s one shout outD

 

Nick Wilson

Add that to the list too of, you know, vulnerable share, I mean, –

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Vulnerable shares.

 

Nick Wilson

Be willing to say like this is this is the thing that happened, this is not a flattering thing for him to share about his you know, but the fact that he was able to reflect on it and you know, use it to move forward.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Yeah. Jacquette Timmons. Her first one in particular on like, our relationship with finances is one that I feel like every time I go back to like, oh, yeah! Then there’s this. But just, and part of it is just where I’m at in my life and reflecting on things, but, you know, a healthy relationship with finances, you know, you have a healthy relationship with finances when it evolves and changes and just how applicable that is to all relationships, right? You should never have the same kind of relationship. Nick, you and I don’t have the same kind of relationship we did when we were 19. And we don’t have the same relationship when I was born. Right? Like because I came after after –

 

Drew Noll

Is that before or after I was born?

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

You pick that up from the, did you? (laughs) What?

 

Drew Noll

That’s why I said I couldn’t remember if it was before or after me. (laughter)

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

We were so close. Okay, but the one that, the one that I have to say and this this is for me personally, that the most, I don’t want to say important because they’re all important. But personally special, I will say, was Dr. Winston and Dr. Seif, who we just had talking about anxiety, talking about OCD. And if you heard on the show, it was really special because honestly, their books helped me through an incredibly challenging time. And there are so many I don’t even remember how Dr. Winston talked about the termites, but I just remember be like, that was a brilliant –

 

Drew Noll

I was hoping I could, –

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Do you have it? Okay, you, I’m not gonna say it. You can, you can talk about it as a tag on to me, and then you can get like another choice. (laughter) I don’t want you to feel –

 

Drew Noll

Well, I was hoping for the lightening round and I was just gonna say termites, if you know, you know. (laughter) It’s a thought the that I don’t know if it was like the intrusive thought or like the consideration like well, I know that termites exist. And I know that termites could eat wood. And I have a living room full of wood. There’s a possibility that termites could be eating the wood away from my living room. And so because of that possibility, I’m not going to sit on the couch, because I might fall through the floor. And so it’s that weight of of the more you think about it, the more the weight, the compulsiveness or whatever it is, the, I forget the terms that he used for that. But yeah, termites for sure.

 

Nick Wilson

It’s like, constructing a narrative from, I think they, I think she maybe referred to them as irrelevant facts or like, unimportant facts. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Yeah, irrelivant facts.

 

Nick Wilson

It’s like, yes, it’s a fact that termites can, termites, eat wood. It’s a fact that, you know, all these things are true facts. And, you know, by putting them together, you can construct this idea that, like, you need to be worried about blank. 

 

Drew Noll

And it’s so true and real, like a fact.  Because some of it all is a fact.

 

Nick Wilson

Right.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Yeah, it was, yeah. And that idea that an anxious mind likes the invisible, right, like the especially the OCD mind, because it can never be certain. And that’s what drives our brain crazy. And that’s what creates the loop. And there was just something about that. And also the other thing, and I don’t remember which of the two said it, but just this idea of when you’re in a really heightened, anxious state, you really are in an altered sense of consciousness, like you aren’t operating on all cylinders. And there’s, again, that’s another one like buy their books, Needing To Know For Sure and Intrusive – and even just their thoughtfulness about, yeah, we didn’t put OCD in the book, because we knew people wouldn’t understand that what they’re experiencing was OCD was just like, so, oh, shit, I found your book, not because I was looking for books on OCD. I found their book because I was looking for books on intrusive thinking, and like just how brilliant that was. But there was so much that was so special, just special for me, and a bit of a like moonshot guest for us. Which I’m hoping we can do more of that next year. But that’s one that I just I have to honor as being personally really, really healing for my heart to have them on and to be able to tell them, how how much their work impacted, impacted me. And I’ve had multiple people reach out, and were like, I bought their books. This made so much sense. Thank you for normalizing it. That’s probably the episode I’ve heard the most from people. Because so many people suffer in silence. So that that’s my final, my final gold star.

 

Nick Wilson

And is a good one. Thank you, Dr, Winston and Dr. Seif.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Thank you. Yeah, thank you. All right, Drew.

 

Drew Noll

There are a handful of guests that talked about this. But the, the, everything that came up around working hybrid, and transitioning in and out of that, and the benefits of it, and the just the studies that are out there and ways to prepare yourself for those difficult conversations, either with your team or with your leadership around like the benefits or or just just in general, like working hybrid. It was so great to hear other people talk about it’s like, oh, yeah, this is totally doable. And here’s why. And there were quite a few guests that brought that up. And even if that wasn’t the focus of the conversation, it was just inserted because it’s such an important topic right now. Because of (leans into the mic) human sustainability. That’s, coming back to that. (laughter) Thanks again.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

It all comes back to the humans. How do we be and not do? Any others that we want to? I mean, there’s so many like.

 

Drew Noll

Have we talked about T. Maxine at all? I’ve… could we?

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

I don’t know, that we’ve mentioned –

 

Drew Noll

Hmm, so good.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

What was it that she said again?

 

Nick Wilson

I have one, a quick, this is lightening round. Going back to, this one was a while ago so I had kind of forgotten a lot of the conversation, but when you talk to Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell, about – the conversation was about leadership burnout and again, maybe a lot of those sorts of things are, don’t feel as applicable to me and don’t maybe resonate for me the same way but there was a line that she said that definitely stuck with me which was when you numb fear and sadness, you also numb joy. This idea of you can’t pick and choose the emotions and the feelings that you have. And that, again, it was in relation to kind of workplace and leadership and these things but to me, it felt very, it felt like she was able to kind of create this like one sentence explanation of like, again, going back to Dr. Frishman and harmful gender norms, you know, specifically as a man, feelings that you’re not supposed to express or have and you know, the kind of limited box that we try to be in and that idea of you can’t, you can’t do that. If you’re numbing all of these, if you’re trying to numb fear, sadness, these these kinds of scary or bad, you know, what we consider negative emotions, that, that is, your numbing everything. And next thing you know, you’re, you’re a depressed person and you’ve numb to all of your feelings. And that’s how, you know, that’s how it happens. So, just, –

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Oh god, yeah! That’s a pretty good one to end on.

 

Nick Wilson

Yeah, it was that that is a great one I had to add mention that one.  You know, we loved Gilmara.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Yeah.  We love Gilmara. 

 

Nick Wilson

Yeah. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Thank you Gilmara.

 

Nick Wilson

Thank you.

 

Drew Noll

Thank you.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

I have so many Gilmara-isms. I have just like like, list of like, Yep, I got my Stephanie-isms. I’ve got my like, I’ve just got my growing list. Alright, so let’s do a quick thank you, Alison Peet, our newest one. Going through the ones, Thank you Tamsen Webster, Kai Gillespie, you want to get in? Oh, oh. Are we just gonna through it? (unintelligible)

 

Drew Noll

Every story is a question. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Tamsen? Yeah.

 

Drew Noll

Sorry, you can keep going. That’s it. (laughter)

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

I’m going to skip the ones we’ve already thanked. Thank you, Danita High, talking about creating a coaching culture. Brandon Springle. Which can we just give a shout out to Brandon talking about psychological safety. His energy was so grounding. Like, I just, I just love talking to that guy. He’s one of my favorite people. Leading People, Robert Sieger. Thank you, Robert. Ky Matkovich, we talked about apologizing. Uwe Dockhorn. Thank you, Uwe. Oh, we haven’t talked about our friend up in Canad a who works in hospice. And I know we don’t, do you have her? On your 

 

Drew Noll

That’s a good one. Janice? I do. It’s it’s written so deep into my DNA, that episode, that I forgot to bring it up because I feel like it came from me. It’s so part of me now. The the concept of of all of that, and the death and the and the relationships that we have with it. And sorry, yeah, thank you for that.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Well, what Yeah. Janice Chobanuck, I think is how you say it. Okay. Thank you. Dr. Teresa Peterson. Michelle Love Day. Look at all these amazing people. My good friend Farah Harris. 

 

Nick Wilson

Yeah, I feel like we’ve done a disservice by not talking about Farah. Farah we love you. And you’re. Yeah. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

We love you so much. You know what part of it is, is because like she and I are in conversation so much I don’t think of it as like, you know, a standalone thing. But let’s just like call out the the work of, like her, her work around rethinking emotional intelligence, and particularly giving light to the fact that it isn’t always this lovely thing. And often, especially for people who are underrepresented or oppressed. It’s a form of survival. Like that. Yeah. It’s interesting because so much of what we talked, I was like, yeah, yeah, it’s things that she and I’ve talked a lot about. She’s written about, yeah, Farah, like you’re, you’re awesome. And then her episode last year about boundaries. You know, that the people, people who won’t honor your boundaries have no problem in like putting theirs on you. Kristen Harcourt, Kristin Sauter talking about ADHD, Sam Eaton. Kirsten Anderson, Ryan Dunlap. I forgot about Ryan. That was a moonshot. I didn’t forget about. but like, he’s so great. Andre Young. And then T Maxine Woods-McMillan. Let’s see who kicked us off. Jacquette, Nola Simon, Liz Nead. Oh yeah. I forgot we had Liz on.

 

Nick Wilson

Liz is another amazing vulnerable share. So just, yeah, again, just the people are amazing when they are willing to come and share things that are, you know, really challenging, things that are real in their life and Liz was another one.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

And to show up when she knows that, like how she shows up is different than how she showed up before her, her heart and brain, yeah, just all of her challenges she had. Julie Turney, Dr. Nika White is always a classic. And then we started with Lou Diamond. So thank you all so much for everyone who has been willing to give their time and talents. I also want to take a moment as we’re wrapping up this to thank everyone who listens to the show. We have grown, we are growing, we have well over 16,000 downloads. We’re in almost 70 countries, which is incredible. And I’ll just do one more invitation. We love hearing from people. And so we are taking a pretty long, well not a long, we’re taking some time off at the end of the year and during our holiday season. But if there are topics you want us to explore, I know that there’s some topics that have been on our list of like that we want to find some guests to speak to. Let us know, you can always send us an email at podcast @ sarahnollwilson.com. Also what, like who has stuck out for you? Who are people that made you stop and go, Oh, I hadn’t thought about that? We would love to hear it and more importantly, be able to give those people their flowers.  Hey, and let’s do a final thank you to the two of you. Who knew when we started this little show that – my goal was like, Can we get to 25? Can we get to 50? And now it’s like, yeah, we’re at 80. And we’ll hit 100. And then we’ll go on to there. So thank you, Nick, for being the ever present partner in my life on screen and off screen and behind the camera and keeping on top of stuff and Drew for, you know, just helping us make the show as professional as we can because of your skill. It’s always fun to get your late night Sunday, oh man this. (laughter)  I’m always like, Oh, this is a good one can’t wait for you to hear it. And then we have some folks who couldn’t make it tonight. So Becky Reinert who is our transcriptionist, she has the fun of listening and making sure that the transcription is correct. She’s also a sibling, our our marketing support, our marketing support Jessica Burdg. And obviously the whole SNoWCo crew. We couldn’t do this work. So, what else, what else you want to say in our final moments, Nick and Drew?

 

Nick Wilson

Thanks for listening. We, we make a show (laughter) and it would be less worthwhile and rewarding if people weren’t listening to it. So we appreciate listening. People listening.

 

Drew Noll

I’m really looking forward to next year.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

Yeah, and can keep amping it up, like keep ramping it up and finding great guests and probably hearing from a few familiars. I can’t wait to like (laughs) send Maxine a text right now and be like, hey, you need to listen to next week’s episode. And will you just record yourself listening to it? (laughter)

 

Drew Noll

That will be episode 81, is her.

 

Nick Wilson

In this special episode where we’re just talking about you. (laughter) Hope you don’t mind.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

I love it. I love it. Well, I love you guys. I’m so glad we get to do this work. This was a lot of fun. Hopefully, those of you listening have had fun as well. So that is the wrap for 2023. Our guests this week have been the amazing 79 guests that have led up to this point. And our main guests who are actually talking is Nick Wilson and Drew Noll. And if you’d like to find out, no, see this is – I was gonna do it in one shoot! Just keep it, just keep it.

 

Nick Wilson

We’ll do live!

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

We’ll do it live, no. And if you’re with us this far, and you haven’t shut off. If you want to support the show, because we love your support. Please make sure to rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. That’s actually really necessary to help us be able to get into more algorithms, to get exposure, to be able to show up on lists. So if you haven’t done that, please do that. Also, if you want to financially support the show, you can do so by going to Patreon and becoming a patron by going to patreon.com/conversations on conversations where you get great swag. And you know you help support the crew that makes this show possible. This has been Conversations on Conversations. Thank you all so much for listening. Remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So rest, rehydrate, celebrate, sleep, eat good food, hibernate, go in the sun, whatever you’re going to do over the next, you know, six weeks or so and –

 

Nick Wilson

However you want to be.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson

However you want to be, however you want to be, and we’ll see you in 2024 my friends

 

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Sarah Noll Wilson is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. She aims to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching and Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health.

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