Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Emilie Aries for a deep dive conversation around workplace gender dynamics and the challenges women face in the realm of corporate leadership.
Emilie Aries is a speaker, podcaster, author, and the Founder & CEO of Bossed Up, an award-winning leadership development and career services company committed to closing the gender leadership gap. Her book, Bossed Up, serves as a practical roadmap for women who want to set themselves up for sustainable, long-term career success and step up as the boss of their lives.
TWITTER: @bosseduporg
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and with each other. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson. And joining me today is a bit of a fan girl moment for me, Emilie Aries, and we will be exploring the idea of gender gaps in leadership. So this is a topic that is near and dear to our hearts. And I know for many of you who are listening. So let me tell you a little bit about Emilie before we jump into our chat. Emilie Aries is a speaker, podcaster, author and the founder and CEO of Bossed Up, an award winning leadership development and career services company committed to closing the gender leadership gap. Her book, Bossed Up, serves as a practical roadmap for women who want to set themselves up for sustainable long term career success, and set up, step up as the boss of their lives. Welcome to the show Emilie!
Emilie Aries
Thanks so much for having me. And I’m fan girling over here, right back at ya, so delighted to be here.
Sarah Noll Wilson
We met through our mutual friend, Stephanie Chin, and I had the privilege of being on your show, as we talked about the work Stephanie and I do as my inclusion coach, and it was just such a great conversation.
Emilie Aries
Such a good one.
Sarah Noll Wilson
What else do you want people to know about you?
Emilie Aries
Let’s see, I am based in Denver by way of DC. I’m an east coaster, but my entire family has found its way to Colorado, and we love it here. And I’d say like, it’s so funny because now the work I’m doing really combines my past decade of growing a company focused on leadership development and closing the gender leadership gap with my prior roots in advocacy and activism. So I’m really involved in Colorado advocacy work around the systemic forces that lead to things like the gender wage gap and the gender leadership gap. So I’m excited to bring both of those hats with me (laughs) to today’s conversation.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So talk a little bit about your journey to this because that was one of the things that was so fascinating was all of your advocacy work you did prior to starting your business?
Emilie Aries
I mean, I never thought I would be a business owner. Let me say that and I’m 11 years in, this spring. So (laughs) –
Sarah Noll Wilson
First, congratulations on that. Because we know that like most small businesses don’t last past three years.
Emilie Aries
Right. It was, you know, touch and go there for the first couple. But I am proud to be where I’m at. And that, you know, I only started Bossed Up because I wanted this organization to exist for my own selfish reasons. Back in 2012, I was going through a really transformational time in my life. I was completely burnt out from working and overworking for years on campaigns, working on both state and federal political electoral campaigns, policy advocacy campaigns. I had risen quickly in the world of politics as a young state director on behalf of then newly elected President Barack Obama’s Organizing for America Initiative. And so while I was my own boss at a very young age, like right out of college, I used to joke in a not so funny way that I was a bitch to work for. (laughs) And, and I ran myself –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Do you look back at that, and like –
Emilie Aries
Oh, internalized patriarchy what? Yeah. I unpacked that in my book many years later, but it’s like, oh, okay, wow, we’ve got work to do, Emilie. So I basically burnt out spectacularly from overwork, a chronic lack of caring for myself, in a culture where I was happy to martyr myself for the cause and for the campaign, but simultaneously, I was in love with and living with my partner at the time, who, like millions of Americans struggled with addiction. And somehow, in all of my, you know, privileged education up into that point, had not covered things like codependency. And I realized, you know, when I found myself in the therapist’s office, at the ripe old age of I think, 23, 22-23, that I was like, fully out of my depth. That there was no overachieving my way through perfecting my relationship and my career, as was my MO as a, you know, chronic over-functioner. And so that, that kind of caused me to have a bit of a recalibration early on in my career. That brought me to DC, where I learned how to set some boundaries personally and professionally, and kind of needed a fresh start. And even though I was still working in politics in DC, I was proving that there was a different way to live and work, proving it to myself. And in that year of really healing and caring for myself. I mean, I went from like, running my first ever 5k to competing in a Olympic triathlon and like, physically, emotionally, mentally, financially becoming stronger than I had ever been in my life. I said, oh my goodness, I want a community where other women who are navigating systems and structure that make us feel like we have to be nice and kind to the point of breaking ourselves, like bending over backwards to the point in which we break, that we can actually come together and recognize it’s not me that’s failing. It’s a system that is failing me, a system that has taught me I have to be, you know, I have to put everyone else’s needs before my own. And I started Bossed Up after a series of dinner table conversations with other high achieving, high performing women in Washington, DC said, yes, please sign me up for that. And I took everything I learned from my advocacy life and how to create a campaign, which is great breeding ground for an entrepreneur actually.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure, yeah.
Emilie Aries
And said, well, let’s see. Like, I think this is potentially a profitable endeavor. Like this is not a nonprofit, I’m actually looking to help a pretty privileged group of women here.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Emilie Aries
Let me figure out if I can avoid the fundraising trap that I don’t want to fall into and, you know, bootstrap my way into a viable business model. And a few years in, yeah, that was very much – I mean, we were pretty quickly selling out of our trainings.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Wow.
Emilie Aries
And in 2020, we went all virtual, and our trainings have only done better since. So it’s certainly not been without its crazy moments and stressors, but I have learned so much, and I’ve grown up alongside the Bossed Up community who’ve really we’ve all leveled up together.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, there’s so much – I took a couple of different notes, because there were things you said that I wanted to make sure, either we come back to right now. But one thing that you said was, I can’t overachieve my way out of this.
Emilie Aries
Mm-hmm, yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Just like hit me in the heart a bit of and, and I so appreciate how you speak to the systems that set up, right, the cultural expectations that set up our need for perfectionism, our need to over achieve, our need to martyr. I mean, these are all things that are so deep in my DNA that I feel I’m working on day in and day out to push beyond or to create something different. So that, I just wanted to name that. As you’ve been on this journey, and you described it as I learned for myself that there’s another way of doing this. What does that look like for you? Because that’s something we are so passionate about within –
Emilie Aries
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
My colleagues and I are – how do we do this differently? How do we really create a human centered organization that still can be financially highly successful.
Emilie Aries
Right, right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And make incredible impact, but we can do it without burning ourselves out?
Emilie Aries
I think that is a conversation the whole world is having three, four years now after 2020. You know, we’ve all been gripping in a way just to survive for the past few years that I feel like there’s this unclenching (laughs) that’s happening.
Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s such a – no, it’s such a – that term, gripping Yeah, sure. I sure do.
Emilie Aries
We all just like, we were like, we can survive this, we’re just going to muscle our way, push through. And our company’s bottom lines benefited from that. Right? Like, and I think, you know, like, just for context, my background in political organizing included like labor organizing, rabble rousing. My baby sister is a union organizer, like, my dad’s a worker’s rights attorney, like capitalism is so fundamentally flawed. And I’m an entrepreneur who like loves a tidy P&L. So it’s just it’s a funny. There’s a bunch of hats I bring to this but here’s what I’ll say is that the different way that I have found for myself, which each of us have different privileges and, and challenges that we have to navigate in figuring this out for ourselves, is what I call sustainable success. And unfortunately, like our government, and our country, and our corporations, they can either help create sustainable success for everyone. They can make, they can make this more accessible and possible for everyone, or in our highly individualist world, in the western business world, particularly, we have to like kind of, like muscle our way to –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Emilie Aries
Like clawing back some power sometimes to say, what will I no longer allow, so that I can give myself the freedom to figure out how to be more sustainable in my pursuit of success. And you know, that’s easier said than done. I’m working on a project here with the city of Denver, where there’s a boatload of migrants from Venezuela and elsewhere who have been shipped up from, you know, the Mexican American border from from Governor Abbott in Texas. And these folks are willing to work very hard. We have a labor shortage in the city and state, and yet they’re undocumented and they won’t be documented for any good number of time, even when federal intervention like temporary protective status. So, you know, yeah, telling them to just like pursue sustainable success rings really hollow. We have to acknowledge how inaccessible that is to some, but if we have the privilege of being able to claw our way through our broken systems to something more sustainable, it is incumbent upon us that we do.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(pauses)
Emilie Aries
(laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m just gonna like, sit and let you preach to me. I – no, I.
Emilie Aries
I’m sorry, this is not very conversational of me but like I was like –
Sarah Noll Wilson
I mean, if when I’m pausing, for people who are listening. Yep.
Emilie Aries
Right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
I mean, there’s so – well, and speaking, you know, to that, that privilege, and and the question that was coming up for me, as you were talking, as I was thinking about my own journey, because part of me wanting to become an entrepreneur, was first, it was more could I do this work on my own.
Emilie Aries
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
But there was always for me, or not always, for a very long time. I just kept this list in my head. Someday, if I ever owned a company, how would I do it different? Someday if I owned a company, how would I do it different than how I’ve experienced it, how I’ve seen other people experience it. And now that, you know, we, we have a few years under our belt, and we’re at a place where we can start. Now it’s not just how do I do that for me? But how can I do that for as many other people so that they can have freedom?
Emilie Aries
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And I really do appreciate that language of sustainable success. And the question that was coming up for me, as you were talking about all of the inequities and not having access, right, to different resources is, what would be possible if more people could create sustainable success for themselves? What would be possible if the undocumented worker could get documented and could be able to support their family? What would be possible? You know, I’m thinking about people when I run into them at the grocery store, and I say, how’s your night going? They’re like, it’s okay, I’m, this is my second job. And like, man, why, like, –
Emilie Aries
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
How do we get to a point where, and I know that that’s not for us to solve. We won’t solve that today. But I can’t help but think about how, how unbelievably transformative it has been for, for me, my mental health, my emotional health, my relationship health, all of my well being to be in a space that is sustainable for me.
Emilie Aries
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And what would be possible in our environment, in our culture, in our community, if more people could be in that.
Emilie Aries
Right, if more people could reach their full potential because they had their basic needs met. You know, and could access higher order thinking quite frankly, right? That’s a really great question to ask. And there’s brilliant economists out there who can do the calculations around like how much we spend, as a country or as a world because of the negative health impacts or the negative social impact of a lack of access to like, just like a, – I’m not even talking about like the overnight, like success story of like, look at her, she’s driving a Bentley now and she’s successful, because she’s got red bottom shoes, It’s like, how about just like access to a middle class life, like, being able to send your kids to school and feel like they’re in good hands or feel like, you know, your zip code shouldn’t determine your educational and life outcomes like they do in this country? So it’s just –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right.
Emilie Aries
You know, the ask isn’t that high, and it can be achieved. But to sort of bring up the gender thing for a moment.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Emilie Aries
Is, it’s different for women? Because it’s not just can I be a boss? Can I pursue my full potential professionally? It’s also all the other social expectations we have associated with womanhood, girls even, and just femininity, if we want to detach it from like, gender identity versus sex, right? Like, being a feminine person in the society comes with a laundry list of expectations. To care more for others than you care for yourself. And that’s truly short sighted success. That is not sustainable success.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It, you know that that is something – I don’t know when that started to become clear for me. I feel very fortunate that I am with somebody who has been an advocate for me to untangle from that. Right. And I may have, I know I’ve told this story on another episode, but you might laugh. Mushrooms. I know Nick is laughing as he’s listening to this right now. (laughs)
Emilie Aries
I love that he’s in the room, where it’s like, don’t mind us, we’re talking about you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
We’re just talking about you.
Emilie Aries
I love it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
So mushrooms, mushrooms have become the symbol for me to live (laughs)
Emilie Aries
Are we talking, like magic psilocybin? Ok.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) No, I’m not. I’m talking about canned, 99 cent canned mushrooms.
Emilie Aries
Got it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay. Because I love mushrooms, Nick doesn’t enjoy mushrooms. And but, now to be clear, he’s never asked me once in our relationship to not cook with mushrooms. But but because I was raised so much, and culturally was conditioned so significantly, to say you sacrifice for other people, your needs aren’t as important. For the longest time. I just never cooked with mushrooms, even though it’s one of my favorite foods. And I and I think he just never realized it right. But I was like, withholding, and it was like, this is a symbol for so many other parts of my livelihood.
Emilie Aries
Wow, yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And, and you know, beautifully so it was like, okay, well, make the mushrooms. I’ll just pick them out, and then I’ll give them to you and you get more. Beautiful. Like, right?
Emilie Aries
I mean, it makes you think about what unmet needs are sneakily behind the mushrooms, you know what I’m mean?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. (laughs)
Emilie Aries
What needs are we just unconsciously suppressing because we’re like, oh, I don’t really need that thing that I love having in my life. Like, let me just, you know, just swallow hard and like, the martyrdom mindset is what I call it in my book, which, like, I will gladly fall on the sword for the people that I love. And it’s like, if you take that a step further, and you elongate it over the course of a lifetime. My mom, for example, is a labor and delivery nurse. She’s 65, 66, 67 now? I got to double check on that. But you know, she’s been working 12 hour shifts her whole life, her whole career.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah.
Emilie Aries
And it’s very physical work. You know, she’s on her feet, she’s helping women during one of the most vulnerable times you will ever experience in your life. She is a professional caretaker. She cares for others. And then at home. You know, she raised myself and three other siblings, the four of us, five, if you count my dad, is always my not so funny joke that I throw in there. But it’s like, you know, she is the primary caretaker at home and always has been. And what was the cost of that? Well, it really was exercise, sleep, taking care of herself physically. And that has a compounding effect. Right? Just like not saving for retirement has a compounding effect.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah.
Emilie Aries
And so I just wonder, you know, it is interesting, because if you look at burnout and stress, men die earlier on the whole.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Emilie Aries
Men physically have their own set of stressors attached to patriarchy, and their gender roles are very constraining in their own way. But like, literally, what are you giving up to be the wife, the daughter, the mother, the sister, the boss, the friend that you think you need to be? Like, that is the question because hopefully, it’s just mushrooms. Like, hopefully, that’s as bad as it gets. (laughter)
Sarah Noll Wilson
No, I’ve untangled a lot. But, like, I mean, but the good thing, the good thing is I’m in a good place, I have a good therapist and have a great husband –
Emilie Aries
Yeah, totally.
Sarah Noll Wilson
So I’ve been able to shed a lot. But every once awhile, I’ll be like, oh, right, I’m deferring to you. And I like it. Like, I had to train myself. It because it wasn’t even so much dismissing my needs, I wasn’t even listening to my needs.
Emilie Aries
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, like that, that took a training to say, no, actually, I don’t want that. Actually, I do want this, or I am going to spend time doing this. And that’s okay. And I’m not even realizing how (laughs) – I can’t think of the word right now. But I mean, it was just the air that I breathed, right, coming, right, coming from the martyrdoms very much and just how do we, how do we break that? One of the things that you talked about early in this conversation that I’m curious to get your thoughts on is that idea of realizing that so much of the pressure and stress we can feel particularly as women are the systems and the structures and it makes me think of the whole dialogue and discourse around the imposter syndrome.
Emilie Aries
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And and you know, it was Ruchika’s article and I, forgive me, I forget her –
Emilie Aries
In HBR.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, the HBR and we’ll share it in the show notes. But it was such a provocative article to say stop telling women that they’re not confident and look at the systems –
Emilie Aries
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
That are not who – we don’t get rewarded. We get punished if we’re too confident.
Emilie Aries
Right, Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
We, we get told we’re rude, we get called bossy, we get called, right, like all of that, that stuff. So I’m curious just to get your perspective of how you have been thinking about that or how that’s showing up in the clients who support.
Emilie Aries
Hm, well I wanted to take this in sort of two parts. One is that article is phenomenal. It’s stop telling women they have imposter syndrome. And there’s two real key reasons why we should stop telling women they have imposter syndrome. One is it’s not a fucking syndrome. This is not a diagnosis. This is not a clinical –
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s not a bacterial infection –
Emilie Aries
Yeah and you can’t catch it, like it’s just a misnomer. It makes it sound a little more official than it actually is. So I like to use the term imposterism. And the other –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh.
Emilie Aries
Right? It’s a great alternative, just imposterism.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Emilie Aries
But in my keynote titles, it’s still imposter syndrome, because that’s what people know it as.
Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s what people know.
Emilie Aries
And we change it, right? So imposterism. The other reason we shouldn’t tell women or folks of color that they have it is because everybody has it, we have to normalize the widespread nature of imposterism. It is a normal sign that you’re not a megalomaniac. (laughter) So, if you think, hey, there’s a big new shiny promotion, I’m gonna go for it, I feel no self doubt, you probably are an egomaniac, right, like so. It is a sign of growth that often hits right on your growth edge. So when you are expanding your identity is what I call it in my book, like, when you’re going through and navigating a moment of identity expansion. Can I be this fierce? Can I become a mother? Can I become a business owner? Can I become a leader in my organization? Like those are, those are moments where you’re not just changing what you do, you’re changing who you think you are.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Emilie Aries
And so of course, you’re gonna feel like a fraud. Because you’re, you’re in the midst of some sort of metamorphosis when it comes to your own identity. Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. I really appreciate that perspective. And last year, we had Neha Sampat on, and we talked about this, and one of the things she added to this conversation was imposter syndrome, right? If we refer to it or imposterism, often shows up when you’re having to exist in systems that weren’t built for you.
Emilie Aries
Right. Right. Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
But I do appreciate that idea of you’re rethinking your identity, you’re rethinking what’s possible. And in some cases, some of that is also clawing your way through a system –
Emilie Aries
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
That – yeah.
Emilie Aries
Well, I think there is a big difference between belonging and self confidence. And so it’s like, from how our school system was designed, which, by the way, benefits young girls because we are really good at perfecting, performing and pleasing, which shows up later in a detached sense of our own desires, right? What the hell do I want? I don’t know, what do you want me to be? I will be that, right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Emilie Aries
We train our men to be stoic as little boys, like stiff upper lip, boys don’t cry. And then, you know, 30 years later, we ask them to open up to us. So we could be emotionally connected, like, gender is everywhere. But it’s so implicit, that it’s, it’s our individualism focus in the Western world. 99% of the time, women who come through our programs at Bossed Up go, I need to work on my, I don’t know, visionary influencing skills. I need to work on my persuasive and assertive communication. And really what’s underlying all of that. And to be clear, I’ve had a bit of a feminist existential crisis in the last year, reflecting on the ways that I have been complicit in reinforcing that, that presupposition that it’s you. Like, hire me and I will help you, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Same.
Emilie Aries
When in fact, it’s the whole world we live in that has caused women to adapt in those ways to try to please everybody all the time and it’s like, I liken it to tap dancing on a tight rope. You want to be nice, you want to be seen as caring, you want to be seen as conforming to traditionally feminine stereotype. So you don’t want to ruffle feathers but you also want to be respected. You want to be seen as boss. You want to be seemed as a leader, and it’s like, threading those two needles just feels like a tap dance on a tight rope. And for women of color, it’s like adding a juggling act on top of it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, right. It’s – We’ll be talking with Dr. Alison Fragale. She’s got a book coming out this fall called Likeable Badass. And it’s all about, it’s all about the behavioral science, right?
Emilie Aries
Wow.
Sarah Noll Wilson
What happens to women and how do we set women up for success. And that that double bind by right, so it’s so real.
Emilie Aries
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And, you know, like you spoke to, there is a gender bias, there are gender rules that do not serve, people who identify as males either, right, like they are often don’t know how to be in intimate relationships. They don’t know how to be emotionally aware for themselves even. And, and it is that that balance of the likeability –
Emilie Aries
Totally.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Like, I can’t be to bold. I can’t be too, too confident, but I need to – I can’t be demure. And it’s this constant, this constant wrestling –
Emilie Aries
Totally.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Of how do I just show up in a way that’s just me?
Emilie Aries
(laughs) Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Knowing that some people are gonna respond to that, and some people aren’t.
Emilie Aries
And there is no just me, right? Like, we all contribute to culture.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, right. Thank you.
Emilie Aries
We all contribute to culture, and you’re all influenced by culture. So what I actually see happening, Sarah, is like, I think we are culturally in a moment where we are on a quest. (laughs) We are on a quest right now. And you’ll see it all over social media, for what does it mean to be a good man? And what does it mean to be a good woman? And in an era where I’m grateful for our LGBTQ+ pioneers, who have, you know, pushed back on gender as such a binary and acknowledged the performance that is gender and the social construct that is gender. There’s this gripping again, there’s like a grasping one might even say, at, no, I need more clarity than that. I need to know what it means to be a good man. And I need to know what it means to be a good woman. And so that’s where we get the Tradwife, hashtag traditional wife. Right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Emilie Aries
And like this return to like bread baking and traditional femininity, and the Mommy Wars of the 1980s are like coming back with new branding. And it’s just like, there’s just a desire for confidence that you’re doing it right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Emilie Aries
That like it just it belies like a really deep insecurity, I think that we have as a world around what a woman or man should be, or or anyone should be, how do you be in this world when gender is just like, it’s like, crumbling beneath our feet?
Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s so, that’s really, I’m going to chew on that a bit. It’s – after this conversation.
Emilie Aries
It’s tricky. But don’t worry, no HR department is having that conversation right now. Because that’s about 30 years ahead of the curve, right? Like, this is like the bleeding edge of these discussions that –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, and the thing that I’ve observed is, I hear you from that standpoint of, I want to do it well, and I want to do it right. And let’s name the like, the right versus wrong. And also very white supremacists.
Emilie Aries
Totally.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Like, you know, thing. But there’s also as as the narrative is shifting, again, largely because of the push from the LBGTQ Community of kind of questioning those norms.
Emilie Aries
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Questioning the identity, or the rules or the roles that the other thing that I’ve seen that is really beautiful, is an accepting of, I don’t fit those roles. I’m not the traditional, I don’t fit the traditional masculine patriarchal norms. And like, how do I be okay with that, and that’s something we’ve actually talked about quite a bit on the show. And Nick has actually shared his story. So I’m not sharing anything that he hasn’t already shared. But a lot of those gender roles and gender norms contributed to a lot of mental health challenges for him. And so like, even that challenging, but I want to go back to something that you said. And we have a global audience like I know you do. So we’re speaking very much from like a Western American culture, where that individualism – and it’s interesting, it’s something that, that is something I – continues to percolate for me of, how do I shift from that into more of a community and connection. But I really appreciate how you were earlier bringing up about that, like, well, how do I get better at this? And how do I like, how do I do this right? Instead of like, how do we, how do we show up for each other? How do we want to – like, what’s the culture we want to create?
Emilie Aries
Right. And I feel like there’s no right way to do it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, right.
Emilie Aries
Because like, I’m not saying individualism is bad. It’s just something to be aware of. Right? Like
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Emilie Aries
I think there’s some really great things about individualist societies in some ways, but we are kind of bowling alone, right, as the book title would go in that we’ve we’ve really are experiencing a social isolation mental health crisis.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Emilie Aries
And that’s the price we pay for being individualists. And so you do need to kind of figure out what’s the balance here? Because I’m not saying conformity across culture is good.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right.
Emilie Aries
And, you know, I am arguing that, like workers united are definitely a better, you know, bargaining unit than you on your own for sure. So it’s just like reaching for the right tool for the right job. So what is it that we’re trying to do? Not to say individualism is the wrong approach for everything, but it’s like, what am I trying to do? And if it’s, you know, I’m trying to, you know, solve for the mental health crisis that’s affecting our country, particularly teenagers right now, particularly teenage girls right now. Um, society, community, connection is the antidote. And there’s a lot of different opinions on how to how to inject society with more connection.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Emilie Aries
So there’s a lot of different soapboxes I could get on there. I would argue that the workplace discussion around this, especially as we debate return to work, return to office mandates, adds an interesting layer to like, social connection that you choose versus social connection that is forced upon you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. Right. Yeah, that was something that became – when we were starting to come out of the pandemic is, I remember when we were in it saying to the companies who were moving, who had to, because it was most, I understand that remote work during a pandemic is very different than remote work, not during a pandemic. When people can choose to be in community, they can choose to spend time with folks instead of being so isolated, that total isolation wasn’t helpful for anyone, you know, really. And, and, and being mindful of that. And again, that’s part of the for, for us anyway.
Emilie Aries
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right? But, how do we do it differently is, how do we help people have more time to have relationships with people they want to be in relationship with?
Emilie Aries
Right. And I do think there’s a lot of countries that are getting that right. Right? Like a collectivist culture is one that puts public health above personal rights, personal need, right? So like, we saw those mask mandates and isolation mandates during the pandemic go over swimmingly in more eastern parts of the world, right, where it’s like, yeah, the collective need for this trumps my individual rights. And then of course, Americans had a viscerally different approach.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right, right. And even that was dependent on states.
Emilie Aries
Absolutely. Well, there’s so many kinds of Americans.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. (laughter) Because I remember talking to some friends and like wait, people are actually wearing masks? Cause I’m the only one, it feels like.
Emilie Aries
Yeah. So it’s just like, it’s a great example of collectivism versus individualism, though, and it’s like, yeah, okay apply that to social isolation, apply that to the gender leadership gap. Like, in an individualist society, helping close the gender leadership gap feels like a threat to men.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Emilie Aries
And in a society that sees that men dominating almost every leadership position across every industry as a societal failure, right, as a social not good thing for this world can take a more collective approach, right? It’s like the pie can get bigger. It’s not I’m arguing for more pieces of the pie for me. So it does sort of play directly into this winner takes all mentality that, and you know, you look at the American tax code, it certainly feels that way when it comes to inequality and wealth. We’re traversing so many topics that I care deeply about, that I love.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay, so let’s I want to I want to focus in on a specific component of the gender gap in leadership. So for folks who may be unfamiliar, let’s just level set, right, the the gender gap is substantial. Right? It’s, was it McKinsey?
Emilie Aries
So the latest, – They have a great report every year, but the March 2023 data I saw that was cited by LinkedIn, which is very similar to the McKinsey, finds that only 32% of leadership roles are occupied by women. And the proportion, this is a direct quote, the proportion of women in leadership positions has increased by one percentage point since 2016.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, and then when you look at the data of an entry level positions, the distribution is very different and then becomes even more. And then obviously, there’s some industries more so than others. We do a lot of work with financial industry. And that’s something where 60% of employees are women.
Emilie Aries
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And then it drops to 2% of the top leader. One of the things that has been an evolution for me and my colleagues and friends and some clients, is this idea of what what do I want leadership to look like? What does it look like to lead for me when for so long it was through a very masculine, patriarchal norm. And it’s been, it’s fascinating, because I see, even gentlemen, like I have male clients, who are starting to examine it and have moments of, you mean I could approach this differently? I’ve spent, I’m a 62-year-old man and I’ve always wanted to lead more relationally. But I was always told you can never do that, because you can never be an effective boss. What, you know, as you are working with women, who are maybe deciding to step into those positions of power and authority in a formal way. What did those conversations look like that either you’re having with them or they’re having with themselves, because I know that there’s things that I’ve, I remember asking a coach, you’ll appreciate this. I remember asking a coach once, what if I’m too empathetic as a leader? And she was like, that’s not a thing. Like, that’s, (laughs) like, that is a lie that you’ve been told. And then she said, Well, what would that look like? But what I was really describing wasn’t, wasn’t being too empathetic. It wasn’t holding people accountable. Those are two different things.
Emilie Aries
Woo Sarah, we got a lot to talk about.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right?
Emilie Aries
Okay.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Give it to me.
Emilie Aries
Well, first of all, I would argue there’s too much empathy is real. And it’s in one of my programs. We’ll talk about that in a second.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay.
Emilie Aries
But I’m going to put that aside for one moment and say, if you recall, I mentioned that our world kind of conditions women to perfect, perform, and please, it makes us really good students. There’s a reason women have been outperforming men academically for 40 plus years, we have more degrees, we are more educated, black women in particular, are increasing degree holding, like faster than any other population in America, at least. So it’s just like we are doing the work, we are getting the degrees, we are in the student debt, right? It’s happening. And then that completely changes when you look at our professional arena. In fact, entry level women are kicking butt and taking names like we’re doing all the work. We’re perfecting, we’re performing we’re pleasing. We’re great! With client services, we’re empathic. I mean, these are all the skills you want in individual contributors.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Emilie Aries
And then the first promotion from individual contributor to first time manager, everything goes haywire. That is where the gender leadership gap explodes. It is largest at the beginning of women’s careers. So this is different than the anecdotal evidence we have around Oh, well, she’s opting out because she’s having a kid at the midpoint. A lot of college educated women are having kids are in the midpoint of their career. So that’s got to explain the gender leadership gap. No! They’re already behind by the point of the midpoint of their careers. The first step up into leadership McKinsey and Company and LeanIn coined the term, The Broken Rung of Leadership to describe that for every 100 men who are promoted to manager, only 87 women get that same chance. And the number of women of color is even less, 76 Latinos and 54 black women. So it’s like, that is where this explodes and never recovers.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right.
Emilie Aries
So the idea that we’re solving for this, it’s getting better is a total fallacy. In fact, it’s it’s there’s no evidence that this is getting better. And this is what I say to the women who come through my door at Bossed Up. The skills that got you where you are, are NOT the skills that are going to get you where you want to be. Perfecting, performing and pleasing is not what we want in managers. And I’m not saying that the traditionally masculine archetype of leadership is the only constraining way to lead, but there are some things that men in leadership have historically done quite well, like being visionary, not being so bogged down in the details like envision Hillary Clinton in the primary campaign against Barack Obama. Hillary Clinton had plans, she had policy documents, she had fully thought out footnoted evidence on her website saying here’s how we will reform this system and that system and affordable childcare and all of this stuff. And Barack Obama’s like Hope and Change baby, you know? Like inspiring vision for not a red state or a blue state but a United States of America and what is more inspiring in our leaders? We want visionary, compelling leaders who are not necessarily bogged down in the details. And that is a really hard mindset shift for people of any gender. But especially women who’ve been rewarded for being on top of the details their entire lives.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. How does, you know when you think about the, making that shift from the perfection, performer, pleasing, you know, how, how do we then navigate also just the reality that there is a bias, right?
Emilie Aries
Totally, totally.
Sarah Noll Wilson
The fact that there’s more, what is it? There’s more CEOs named John. I mean, I forget what the study is, then women. Yeah. And, you know, there’s more CEOs who are six foot four, or above six foot three. And so some of it, I hear you, some of it is like, what is what are the skills we’re developing? And, and there’s just still the reality that people – you know, it’s, we were we were on a call today. And, and somebody used the analogy of, well, the CEO, he’s the head, but his secretary is the neck and she’s actually the one who’s going to contribute –
Emilie Aries
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And it was just such a fascinating.
Emilie Aries
Yeah. And she’s not getting paid properly.
Sarah Noll Wilson
She’s not getting paid properly.
Emilie Aries
And she’s running the org.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And she is running the organization.
Emilie Aries
It’s so frustrating. I mean, I had like a shame response when you started saying what you just said, because there’s this optimistic, brown nosing, overachiever in me still, who’s like, if we just train all the women, you know, if we just –
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) Oh I feel it!
Emilie Aries
If we just get ourselves fitting into and just be good about school, exactly. Then we’ll get there. And you’re so right. Like, that is not the whole puzzle, right? Like that is not the whole game here. It’s like, no matter how – even if we play gender dynamics, you know gender gymnastics perfectly, and we act machismo when we need to be and caring and empathetic when we need to be in it. Like that’s the type tightrope tap dance, right? Even if we hypothetically did that perfectly, we can’t control the perception that others have of us. We can try. But we can’t. And this is doubly true for women of color, right? Who are up against not only the gender stereotypes, but all the racial stereotypes that come with all of this, or age stereotypes? –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Or age. That’s what I was going to say –
Emilie Aries
Or height or any of those things. So it’s like, yeah, well, here’s the, here’s where I’m landing on this. And this is an evolving, dystopian, you know, crisis that I’m in the midst of, but I am what I call a pragmatic progressive.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Emilie Aries
In that, I believe there are better ways, there are ideal, fantastical cities on a hill, where gender is not relevant. And I also don’t think that’s the strategy that I’m pursuing. I am very much compromising. Like the whole –
Sarah Noll Wilson
I mean, it not –
Emilie Aries
Yeah. The whole premise of Bossed Up .
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s not the system we’re in.
Emilie Aries
Yeah, right, exactly.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s like there, there are things I don’t love about capitalism. That’s the system we’re in.
Emilie Aries
Yeah, yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right? Like, it’s the reality of what we’re in. So how do we play in the container that we have to play in to be most effective? And you know, and it’s not just the bias against women, right? It’s also the familiarity bias. It’s that, oh, he reminds me of me, and spending time on the golf course, and whatever –
Emilie Aries
Proximity bias! Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right! It’s all of it. I think that is so well said. And you just you choose when to compromise and when do you not? And when do you go, okay, like if I can have impact on one or two people, if one or two people can feel seen here, one or two people can potentially consider a new way of doing it? Or if nothing else, just consider that their lived experience isn’t the same as everyone, then maybe that’ll make it worthwhile. I adore you. And I, I love everything you’re doing. And it’s so needed and and on multiple levels, right? Like, it’s just, we’re better when we get more voices in the room and different voices and different ways of being and and also rethinking what what can effective leadership look like, and what do we bring to the table?
Emilie Aries
Yeah. Thank you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I know that I could just keep asking questions, but I want to be respectful.
Emilie Aries
Well, I do feel like if there’s one caveat, I don’t want to leave anyone hanging on the empathy thing?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, yeah, give it to me.
Emilie Aries
Can we unpack that for a second?
Sarah Noll Wilson
I want to hear your perspective on it.
Emilie Aries
I don’t remember which training this came up for. So I have an organizational client that we’ve worked with for years. And we created a custom first time manager training for their in house, fast growing organization, nationwide organization. This is across the gender spectrum. And like many organizations that have leaned into creating a healthy workplace culture, their total people geeks is what I would call them probably like you too, Sarah, right. They’re like all about great leadership, all about empathy. They have described their culture at times as being so people forward that it can actually backfire a little bit. Like accountability, as you named earlier, can be challenging. You know, follow through can be challenging, 70% of their managers didn’t do their year end survey, because they were so busy being present, mindful for their guests and for their fellow workers. Right? So it’s like that kind of thing, like, basic follow through. So anyway, um, you know, they rightfully pick the right battles as an organization, which is people first. But in one of our trainings around emotional intelligence, we talked about what too little empathy looks like, which we all know, like, not listening, not recognizing your own or other’s emotions isn’t great for any workplace. But what does too much empathy look like? And it’s not being able to, like leave work at work, at the end of the day. Like, I am still ruminating. I’m feeling other people’s grief, other people’s frustrations, other people’s loss constantly. Right? And that’s not good for our health care workers. That’s why health care workers are burning out and navigating alcoholism and addiction at higher rates. Right? That’s why our air traffic controllers have a like, you know, tenure of like five years tops, or something wild like that, right? Like, too much empathy can backfire in the form of burnout.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Okay, I really appreciate that perspective because I think sometimes when when I hear people push against too much empathy, that’s not what they’re talking about. They’re basically like, I’d kind of don’t want to have to care for my people. So isn’t there such a thing as caring too much? But what you’re saying is –
Emilie Aries
Caring so much that you’re gone.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Caring so much – that there is actually a significant cost to you, which I completely agree with you. And I really appreciate that. Because, because also, I’m imagining being able to go, well, so I got had an opportunity to interview Emilie Aries. So, you’re totally gonna get quoted on this now. And here’s how she describes it. That, you know, there’s gonna be some people like, Well, shit, that’s not what I was thinking of. I was trying to be able to get out of listening. I don’t actually want to listen to our people.
Emilie Aries
Or care. Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Or care.
Emilie Aries
Caring too much is not something we have to worry about here.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. Right, right. So I am glad we close the loop on it. And I really appreciate hearing your perspective on it. And what a beautiful example, this is something that’s so important in our work and practices. How do we just constantly check for understanding?
Emilie Aries
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Because when you’re like, No, I think there is too much empathy. I had a little reaction like I don’t know, we’ll see if I agree with that or not.
Emilie Aries
Interesting.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh no, I totally agree with you actually, you went a totally different direction than how I thought about it.
Emilie Aries
That’s so funny. You’re like, you need command and control people, Sarah! That’s what I’m here to say. Yeah, no. (laughter) That’s so funny.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it. Okay, Emilie, since you’re a first time guest on our show, we always like to ask the question about conversations that have been meaningful for you. And I always invite our audience to think about how would you answer this as well. So for you, what was the conversation that you had with yourself or with someone else that was particularly transformative?
Emilie Aries
So I’ll try to make this brief. But I had a very specific conversation with my grandmother Norma, who is Panamanian slash Colombian. They were the same country for a while when she was growing up. And her whole life transformed when she married an Irish American soldier who was stationed on the Panama Canal Zone, who became my grandfather.
Sarah Noll Wilson
How scandalous.
Emilie Aries
It is very scandalous. He whisked her off to America. And then they pursued their American dream with systemic help of like, you know, what is that housing legislation that helped veterans get houses and stuff? All of that good stuff, right. Thank you, Uncle Sam. And white privilege borrowed from my grandfather, right, for her. So my grandmother knew firsthand like what it meant to totally transform her life for the person she loved. And she had experience kind of helping her sister escape from a really abusive relationship. She literally went to her house one day, this was in Ohio, she had to like fly there, and said, pack your bags. If you stay here, this guy is going to kill you. We are getting out of here. She got some money by convincing the car salesman who sold my great aunt a car, to buy the car back. And they fled, right? So she has extracted her sister from an abusive marriage. And so when I was stuck, or feeling quite stuck, respectively, many decades later, having a lot more privileged than she had, and then her sister had, but feeling rather stuck in this toxic relationship with a wonderful, caring, high achieving, elected official, head of an organization who also happened to be an addict. Who was not even remotely ready to acknowledge his addiction. And who had made it feel like it was all my fault, right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh, sure.
Emilie Aries
At 22. I asked her, Nonnie, how did you get the courage to leave? Or how did you ever get the courage to transform your life around someone you you love? Right? Like, basically, uh, should I stay or should I go? And to her credit, she didn’t pry. She wasn’t like, Well, why are you asking? (laughs) You know, instead, she just, she just laid it out for me and said, Look, you just have to do what you have to do. Like, you find the strength you need to make the choice you know you need to make and you just do it. And I’d left that conversation like, dammit, if she had so much less, you know, just to work with and was able to advocate for herself and her sister, I can advocate for myself. I don’t need to be liked by everyone, I don’t need to be performing what looked like a great relationship to the outside world. Like I can do the hard thing. And it was very shortly after that, that I extracted myself from that relationship, which was easier said than done, and felt very dangerous and precarious at many times. So that was like the beginning of me taking charge of my life and being what I think of as the boss of my own life. And I have my grandmother Nonnie to credit that.
Sarah Noll Wilson
That’s so beautiful and powerful and also challenging and I appreciate you sharing that and also speaking to the fact that you can speak to it articulately now but that doesn’t mean it was easy in the moment and for anyone who’s experiencing it. But that – so say her advice again. You just find the courage to do it.
Emilie Aries
You just find the courage to do what you got to do. Yeah, I mean she she was so plain about it, she was so – you know it was many decades after for her and I was in the thick of it. So it’s kind of like me saying that to anyone else now who’s in the thick of it who goes, Yeah, right. Right? And I remember there was a defensiveness, But how? And and she was absolutely right. You do it without them being happy with you. You just do what you have to do for yourself. You know and for your own well being whether or not other people like it. I always say, you know what I say? This came into the form of a manifesto we have at Bossed Up, which is, Be selfish. Not always, But Not Never.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hmm I love that. I love that. I love you and I love everything you do and someday we need a future conversation on like boundary setting and all of that. Now I’m gonna have to add you to my quote wall –
Emilie Aries
I love it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Of, be selfish sometimes, but not – never.
Emilie Aries
Not always, but not never.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Not always, but not never. Yeah, I love it. Emilie, for people who are curious to learn about your programs, to work with you, to have you potentially come in to work with them, what is the best way for people to connect with?
Emilie Aries
Well first, wherever you’re listening to this podcast, go subscribe now to the Bossed Up podcast. Go check out Sarah’s amazing episode with Stephanie Chin. And bossedup dot org is the spot bossedup dot com, whichever one. I could buy dot org first, so they both are my website.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Sure. (laughs)
Emilie Aries
You can see how to book me as a speaker for your organization, or how to work with us for job seeker and leadership development training.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Awesome. Thank you so much for doing what you’re doing. And keep doing it. And come back again, please.
Emilie Aries
Thank you for this conversation. This was a delight.
Sarah Noll Wilson
You’re a gift.
Our guests this week has been Emilie Aries, and I’m so glad that our paths have crossed. It was such a treat to be with conversation with her a second time on this show. And (laughs) one of the things that I’m thinking about is when do I try to overachieve my way out of something. (laughs) I couldn’t help but think about a comment that my therapist said. Sometimes we can’t think our way out of it. We have to just like come outside in. So that’s something I’m holding on to and also that language she used over and over again of, we’re trying to be perfect. We tried to perform and we tried to please. Such a, such a powerful and clear way to talk about the challenges that women face. And we want to hear from you. As always, let us know what resonated for you, what came up for you, what questions came up for you? You can always reach out to us at podcast @ sarahnollwilson dot com. Or you can check me out on social media where my DMs are always open and we’d love to hear your thoughts. If you want to support the show, please rate and review our show on your preferred podcast platform. This helps us get exposure so we can continue to bring on great guests like Emilie and consider becoming a patron. You can go to patreon dot com slash conversationsonconversations. We’re not only you’ll be helping support the team that makes the show possible. But you will also get access to early ad free episodes as well as exclusive swag. So win, win, and a win. (laughs)
Big thanks to our team that makes this show possible. To our producer Nick Wilson, our sound editor Drew Noll, our transcriptionist Becky Reinert, our marketing consultant Jessica Burdg and the rest of the SNoWCo. crew. Thank you. And then just a big final thank you to Emilie Aries for her advocacy, for her insight and for her willingness to meet the system and tried to do something different within it. My friends, this has been another episode of Conversations on Conversations. Thank you all so much for listening. And remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So please rest, rehydrate and we’ll see you again next week.
Sarah Noll Wilson is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. She aims to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching and Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health.