Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Paul T. Ruiz as they discuss all things… people! From honoring emotions to repairing damaged relationships, Sarah and Paul explore some of the ways leaders can be intentional about prioritizing their people.
Paul T. Ruiz helps leaders in times of growth, change, and uncertainty. He uses approaches from human-centered design tools and methods, leadership agility, conversational intelligence, and narrative coaching technologies. His work is his passion. For fun and well-being, he cooks, practices yoga, and plays golf. His joy is his wife, Janise, and their teenage sons, Luc and Franco.
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations, where each week we explore a topic or topics to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson. And joining me back is my dear friend, mentor, person who inspires me in doing this work, Paul Ruiz. Paul helps leaders in times of growth, change and uncertainty. He uses approaches from human centered design tools and methods, leadership agility, conversational intelligence, and narrative coaching technologies, among many other of his skills. His work is his passion, as you will hear in our conversation. For fun and well being he cooks, practices yoga, and plays golf. His joy is his wife, Janice and their teenage sons, Luke and Franco. He believes that we need to develop our edge, drive ourselves and others for the best life outcomes, but not to lose our souls in the process. So welcome back to the show, Paul.
Paul Ruiz
It’s such a pleasure to be here. Thank you for inviting me, once again, you guys are awesome. I’m a huge fan. I can’t wait to get this conversation going. And I’m so happy to be here. This is exactly where I want to be at this moment.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love that. We you know, we, we had somebody Alexis Haselberger on the show a few weeks ago, and her definition of productivity was doing exactly what you intend to do. And I love that definition. So I love that you intend to be here. And we’re going to be together in conversation. One of the things that I want listeners to to know about your work, in addition to the bio that we read, is that you are working with teams from a global perspective and similar to our work have a huge focus on relationships and conversations. And I am curious to just, I’m curious to get your reaction to a conversation that’s been coming up a lot with the conversations we’re having with clients recently. So just even today, just this morning, I was talking with a president of a construction company, who basically was saying, if you are not figuring out how to focus more on people, you’re going to be left behind, especially if you’re in an industry that is competitive, has labor shortages. If you are not making that shift to focusing on taking care of your people, you just you’re not going to survive. And I thought it was so interesting to hear that from an industry that’s typically pretty tough. Right? Can be a little rough around the edges. So I’m curious, what what are you seeing observing in your neck of the world? And I just – let’s start there.
Paul Ruiz
Thank you so much. Yeah, the, the year that passed, actually, I was able to work with, rework again with, because I was working for them during the pandemic, this energy company, right? Exactly similar to what you were talking about, a room full of technicians, engineers, and they work offshore rigs. You know, a world, a world that is dangerous, a world that is typified by compliance, rules, to the letter stuff, right? And, but but they’re being run by this fantastic woman, a CEO, she broke the glass ceiling, so to speak too in this part of the world, because it’s typically male dominated industry, and less about that, but more about what the strategy of the company is. And one of the main pillars of the strategy is really people. They really call it a people win. Right? So, winning on people is vital right now. We hear about it a lot. It’s not soft. It’s integral to strategy. It’s now, now is the put your money where your mouth is time. (laughs) Really, you know, and it’s it’s less about ping pong tables or you know, free food. It’s really about shifting work, shifting leaders, shifting thinking. We love to talk about putting people at the forefront, but what are you willing to say no to now. So this is what I’ve been hearing a lot. This is the struggle. And it’s okay to call it a struggle. It is a struggle. You’ve got a room full of leaders who are really trying to become better human beings and at the same time, their companies are just asking for more because you know, we – some companies are riding the wave. Some companies are at the verge of extinction and being human right now is, it’s tough. But it’s also fun, right? It’s tough. It’s fun. It’s, it’s exhilarating, surviving the days like giving you a high that you’ve never experienced before. So, so yeah, it’s so true. It’s real. It’s real.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s interesting that you use the language of it’s a struggle to put people first. Because one of the things that I, well, I was gonna say that I’ve observed, but if I’m being totally honest, even as somebody who has a goal, it’s my life’s mission to create a company for humans. One of my struggles is pushing against everything I was taught about what it looks like to build a company, what it looks like to lead people. And so you have these people who are like highly technically skilled, who probably many of them were raised, quote, unquote, in, in a culture where you don’t build relationships with your team members. They’re your quote, unquote, subordinates, right, which I don’t like that term. And I’m curious, what are some of the other struggles that that you see, or that people might not even realize? Right? Like, let’s have the struggle of if you were raised to view vulnerability and emotions as a weakness, that’s going to be a challenge in trying to build deeper connections with the people you serve and support. So I’m curious, I’m curious to just have you tease out the struggles that you see, as companies try to adopt a more human centered approach or as leaders are trying to show up more for their people in a way that they did before?
Paul Ruiz
Well, I will tease it out. I will go deep, very fast. You mentioned it twice already. And that’s exactly it. The word is raised. We were raised differently. We saw our history, our, you know, the set range of all the leaders. I’m 55 this year, in November, last we talked I was, I was saying I was about to celebrate the 20th year of my practice, that happened last year. Why am I saying that? That’s not to flex, it’s just that we age, right? And so a lot of people who are leading right now, typically, right, typically, they’re of a certain age, right? And that has something to do with how we think because how we think is in effect, just really based on what we’ve experienced. Everything else in front of us is new. So, so if I was raised professionally, if I was raised towards metrics, KPI, key result area, you know, the human element there was really, you know, something like, “Oh, and by the way, you have snacks, right?” That’s how I was raised. (laughter) Right? So that’s how I was.
Sarah Noll Wilson
If at all.
Paul Ruiz
Yes, if at all right, if at all, and then you come home and you know, God bless them, our parents, mine have passed, but you come home and they tell you, right, you know, it’s okay that you struggle. It’s okay that, you know that you’re being talked to that way. It’s okay that you know, the boss is, you know, treating you, it’s okay, be happy that you have a job. So that whole past thing needs to be forgiven as well. And that’s the crux of the struggle. The struggle is that I too am human. And therefore, so if I’m, (laughs) if I’m trying to become empathetic, I gotta be clean, man. I have to be very clean. (laughter) I have to be very clean inside. And if I’m having a bad day myself, I’m not open. I’m, I have a recurring memory, now, now more than ever, right, trauma is super cool, right? It’s like the topic of, topic du jour. It’s like, okay, what triggers you? Right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Paul Ruiz
And you have leadership teams who would say, well, you know, you remind me of, in my past life, it’s like as if they were resurrected. It’s really just their last job, but they’re referring it to the past life. So that is the struggle for me, the struggle is that the human workplace is being led by people too. And they, and it’s hard. It’s hard to become vulnerable. It’s hard to be open. It’s hard to quiet down that pesky voice inside your head. It’s really tough.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s a – (chuckles) I don’t know what it was about your language of clean that just made me giggle a little bit but –
Paul Ruiz
Yeah, you have to come in clean. It’s a struggle, right? To be honest. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
And being imperfect it’s, it’s owning, right, your mistakes. It’s, I had, I had this really lovely conversation. It was a CEO of a multi kind of insurance firm, right? Brokers, and they’re based in the UK. And one of the things he said and I loved his language was, I’m trying really hard to not only increase my capacity, but to be really intentional about it. And when he talked about a defined capacity, it wasn’t capacity to do more work and to be more productive. It was I know, he’s like, I know that if I give all of my capacity at work, then I don’t have any capacity for my son. I know that if I give up all of my capacity, and I am tired and not taking care of my body, or I’m, you know, stressed or frustrated that when, when a team member brings a problem, I’m just going to try to solve it instead of coaching them through it. And I loved this idea of how do I create capacity so that I can show up whole, healthy and have the space when team members are bringing challenges to the plate. And that’s, that’s what was coming, coming up for me as you were talking is, and that’s work. And it’s hard because we all are gonna have times when we’re tired. When we’re stressed. Maybe we have mental health challenges, maybe we’re dealing with, I don’t know, my day to day is – lo and behold, we woke up and we have to get a new furnace and wasn’t planning on that happening and wasn’t playing. I don’t – you probably don’t have furnaces? Do you have furnaces in your neck of the woods? Do you have any idea what those costs are? (laughs)
Paul Ruiz
Of course, of course, of course we do. We do.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And that requires us to have, to be in relationship with ourselves. And that can be real scary for folks.
Paul Ruiz
You coined it as capacity. It is the workout now. That’s, that’s the first question usually, right? Where are you, what’s your energy? When, before, when we were coaching, like five years ago, what’s the question? What’s your problem? What’s the issue? Now it’s not.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Paul Ruiz
It’s you. I have to first work with you. The, sometimes the, for example, my typical session is like an hour and a half, right? An hour is just too short. But it can be really super short. When when when the person I’m helping, the leader, to see, Oh, and that’s, that’s my world right now. The world brought me there. It was never my plan. I told you this before I did. I just accidentally, you know, dropped into their worlds and so far, we’re okay. But when when when we meet, right, the typical go to right now is, How was your sleep? Tell me about your sleep? How many hours? What was your dreams like? And then and then okay, what’s going through your head? What do you want to work on today? Who do you want to work on today? And guess what? Five out of, no, not five, eight out of 10 times the answer would be Me. I have something to talk about me, right, me, because I’m preparing for this big presentation. I’m going towards a budget arbitration and I’m triggered. I’m terrified. I’m angry. I’m frustrated. And I want to have the capacity. And oh, by the way, it’s my daughter’s birthday. And I don’t want to come home that guy. Right? You know, so that’s that that sample that you said, that that conversation? That’s, that’s on. That’s on all over right now. Here, Philippines, Southeast Asia? We’re like, what? 20,000 kilometers apart? It’s on. The world shrunk.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Paul Ruiz
The world shrunk, we’re experiencing very same, same, same, same situations.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, you know, it’s so – Well, there’s two thoughts that are coming up for me, is, it’s been consistent with anyone we’re talking to, is a rethinking of the role of work in your life, when you have the privilege to be able to make that. But also a demanding, if you will, of being treated better, or not tolerating if you’re not being treated well. Like there is a seismic shift, seismic shift that’s happening. And and it’s not just, sometimes people, I hear people say, Oh, it’s the younger generation that really driving it.
Paul Ruiz
(laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
And there certainly are things from different ages that are, right, driving different things. And I’m like, I don’t know, I’m a, I’m a middle aged woman. I’m, I’m trying to drive it too, (laughter) you know, but I want to – there with something you said – and that’s why I always love being in conversation with you, Paul, because there’s something so poetic about your language, and I wrote it down and underlined it is, I have to work with you first. It’s not about the task. It’s not about what’s the problem we’re going to solve?
Paul Ruiz
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
But it’s you, Paul, it’s me, Sarah, it’s you, whoever your team member is that you serve and support. It’s your colleague, it’s your client, it’s your spouse, it’s your family member, it’s your friend, like I am with you. And I just, I, there’s something I really love, that language of the first it’s about us, before, and, and so often, the thing we see, and I know you see it too, is there’s like little to no time spent on the relationship until there’s a problem. And by then sometimes it can be too late.
Paul Ruiz
Let’s give it away Sarah. RBT, Relationship Before Tasks. Ladies and gentleman, to all the audience. This is –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Wait! Is this your acronym?
Paul Ruiz
Yes, this is the hack. She, she just read my mind. It’s called RBT. If you’re, if you’re gonna go something very complex, you’re going to change the whole business model, you’re going to go into a marketplace, you’re going to close the company, you’re gonna open the company, whatever it is you plan to do, you better be working with people you understand, like, enjoy, you don’t have to be best friends. Love is Love is a bonus. But (laughter), you know what I mean? Because, because I hear that a lot. I don’t know, in in the US, in the Philippines there’s this cliche, you know, like, let’s treat each other like family. Like that. And then, of course, in my head, it’s like, yeah, you should meet my sister. (laughter) I’ll treat you like family. She’s gonna talk down on you. She’s gonna. So –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, not everyone likes their family.
Paul Ruiz
Indeed, indeed. And it’s really humorous. But if relationship is not the strategy at the beginning, it’s doomed. I’m sorry. This is this is my observation. I didn’t really read it. I just observed it. I heard it. I saw it. I did not figure it out. I, but now, always in hindsight. Now I see, okay, the ones who succeeded, the ones who were exponential, the ones who survived. It’s it’s like, you know, worn out, they call it thrive, right? Everybody’s trying to thrive. Everybody’s trying to thrive. That’s, that’s cool. All good. However, the – what the secret, the common thread, at the beginning of the show, you mentioned, is that one, they’re trying to be human beings. And two, they really made investments in relationship and I’m not talking about, you know, buying stuff. It’s really tiny. It’s about self sacrifice. It’s about the – I sound like a broken record. It’s really about going through the withdrawal of me, you know, I have to let go of the stuff that I’m so addicted to. It’s withdrawing from that. It’s wow! It’s like, you know, and any anybody who has gone through any kind of program knows what I mean. It’s like it’s physical. It’s very somatic. You feel it in your feet. It’s in your head. It’s, it’s painful. You feel nauseous. Why? Because I want to say something, but I don’t. I shouldn’t. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Paul Ruiz
You know what I mean?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Paul Ruiz
I have to withdraw.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. It’s a (chuckles) – there’s a lot to kind of untangle in that. And, and that point you make is, it’s not in the transactional exchanges, right? Like you said, it’s not. It’s in being seen. It’s in people feeling valuable and valued. It’s in people being protected. It’s in people. You know, I we had this really beautiful moment recently on our team, and my colleague, Dr. Teresa Peterson said, I love that I can tell everyone on this team I’m having a bit of an emotional spiral this week, and I think it’s going to be with me another week or two because of everything I know that’s coming up.
Paul Ruiz
Beautiful.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And she like, I love the fact that not a single person judged me for it, nobody was taking notes on it. There was all this like, just an awareness of hey, what do you need, we got you. And, and, and it seems so simple to say that, but it can be so hard, and we’ll talk a little bit about some of the components of why that’s necessary. But I want to go back to your your point of, because we’re seeing the same thing. 100% of the time, the companies and the teams that do really, really well, there is a high – and when I say well, let’s let’s define this, well isn’t just financially, it’s where people feel really good about it. It’s where people feel good about how they’re working. It’s that they’re engaged, right? Like it isn’t just because, you know, one of my one of my little Sarah-isms is you can be productive and also destructive. Let’s be very clear about that.
Paul Ruiz
Yep.
Sarah Noll Wilson
But you said doomed. And when we were on a little technical break, we got to talking about, it is a strategic risk.
Paul Ruiz
Oh, yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
There is a risk if you are not prioritizing people, especially now. And I just want to go back to that, because you were saying such great stuff, that I want to bring that back into the conversation.
Paul Ruiz
Yeah, one of the one of the teams that I’m serving right now, that, that’s their main business, right? And they provide the biggest, most comprehensive global risk report. And number three, if I’m not mistaken, I’m certain it’s in the five. But number three is people risk. Can you believe that? Third, only to climate and political unrest. And what’s going on over the world, right? People. And when the, when you deep dive into people risk, this is exactly the point, exactly what we’re talking about. Are we able to engage in a manner that – it’s not about retention. I was just about to say keep, and I caught myself, it’s not about keeping them. It’s really about are we able to work with people that treats them well, so that they become better for the planet? Right? So it’s kind of deep, right? It’s like, okay, what are you on this time, Coach? So so it’s, it’s really about, can, do they contribute? That’s why if you, if you, if you listen to the past two anecdotes that we shared, right, the leader will always ask, how come I am not showing up at home? What’s eating me? What’s, what’s eating the reserves, and, and they’re always asking themselves, and it doesn’t matter if you’re a mom or your dad, or you’re a single, or it’s a partner, it really doesn’t matter. Everybody values what they become, who they become when, when they leave the workplace. And therefore, our, our accountability as leaders is really to, you can’t really take it away, but you really have to talk about mitigating that kind of risk, that kind of exposure. When they leave the workplace, do they become, you know, automatons? You know, they’re like, you know, zombies, and then they really have to take a drink before they rest. Or do they become energized, you know, and then they become loving, and then they still have time for family, community, play, play man, you know, like, you know, the happiest place in the world, Finland, they pay the employee to play. I pay you to play. Bring me to Finland. (laughter)
Sarah Noll Wilson
We’ve got to get some clients over there, Paul.
Paul Ruiz
Yeah. Indeed, indeed. (laugher) That’s the plan. That’s the plan. I hope somebody there hears us. Because –
Sarah Noll Wilson
We do have listeners there, so Paul and I will work for a discount if you hire us both together.
Paul Ruiz
Yes, we will find a way to get there. And that, that’s it and it’s institutional, right? Institutional.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Well, it’s, you know, it’s a – when when you view people as disposable, when you view them as an inconvenience, you, you minimize the impact that they really have. I mean, let’s let’s be real, if you’re the person who cares about the bottom line, um, not taking care of your people impacts the bottom line eventually. And that was one of the things we were talking about when Teresa was sharing this observation is, that’s a strategy. Like a way to be strategic in your “productivity” is to let people have the space when they need the space to navigate life’s things. Trust that when you take care of them and they have the energy they’re going to give you even more. And, and it was just, it’s something we’ve been, we’ve been chewing on a lot and so – okay, so that brings me to one of the points I want to make sure we talk about in this certainly was very much alive and present before the pandemic. And we’re still hearing it, although I will say that it is becoming less talked about, but it’s still very present, this idea of, you gotta leave emotions out of it. Don’t take things personally, leave it at the door. You know, people pride themselves, you know, like, I think about how many folks who have told me I’m not an emotional person. And my my joking, loving response is always which emotions don’t you feel? Do you not feel joy? Oh, no, you feel joy, right? Like, there’s this, this badge of honor. And this minimizing and dismissing of emotions in the workplace, and I don’t even know what my question is, to be honest.
Paul Ruiz
But I hear it. It’s ok. You’re very clearn.
Sarah Noll Wilson
But it’s so problematic. So I’m curious, what’s coming up for you?
Paul Ruiz
You’re very clear. The question really is, does it make sense, right? The question is, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh gosh, Paul.
Paul Ruiz
Right? Does it make sense? Does the question of emotion makes sense? So, well, my answer, of course is always you’re in business, because you want to make money, it makes so much business sense to put emotion in the workplace. Because it is inherent in my best talent. They, they cannot get away from it. They, it’s, it’s part of them. So just, you know, I mean, I’ll be very, very careful here. But I think we have a global safe space here. So I mean, you know, it’s, and it’s very far between, I’ll probably talk to you in 2026. So, you know, I’ll say it already. If, if I can’t deal with the whole of you, then I’m shortchanged as a company. If I negate that, if I delete that, then I’m only paying for you know, a fraction of who you are. I need you to be there, the loving you, the painful you, the tragic you, the disappointed you, the confused you, the sick you, and the well you, it has to be whole, because I pay for everything. Right? So it just makes so much business sense to really have emotions as normal. Right? It’s normal. Be the branding of oh, she’s emotional, oh, he’s emotional. These, these, these are all, you know, old old elephants, to quote your book, right? These are very old elephants. I’m really sorry. I apologize to you know, all the chairman of the board that I worked for who are past 60. I don’t mean you guys. So. But I mean, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
And I would say old, old, not just an age but old in mindset.
Paul Ruiz
Yes, it is a rigid belief that needs to be released. Right? It is a belief. And there’s so much sources, we don’t blame anyone. It’s just that it was just there. It’s part of this. It’s like, it’s a three hour conversation to talk about where that came from, that rigid belief that you know, you know, don’t take it personally. My translate, you’re very, you’re very kind person. And I think I’m just aging, my translation of don’t take it personally is, be dead. Just be dead.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs loudly) Holy moly, god, there’s –
Paul Ruiz
So when somebody –
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love you.
Paul Ruiz
So when I hear that, when I hear that, it’s like, Ah, I hope you’re dead just for a few minutes. Okay. So what I’m about to tell you is I’m changing your role. And are you alive again?
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Paul Ruiz
Are you ready to accept the pain? It’s like, it’s insane, right? So you can, again, to not be emotional is dead, right? That’s why we need to quiet down it comes you need to understand the brain. This is this is where we met, right? The conversation comes from the brain, you have an idea, you have something to say about it. It’s typically said inside first. But most importantly, the brain will generate the feeling because your heart is part of your brain. So to say that emotions have no place at work. It’s just it doesn’t make business sense to me. It’s not any more about the soft leader. It’s just, it doesn’t, the science doesn’t support it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, the science, the research, the anecdotal, yeah, the formal research, yeah, it just, it doesn’t support it. I’m gonna quote you so much now.
Paul Ruiz
Be dead, right? Be dead. Wow.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Be dead. I mean, that’s the thing and people will, they’ve just convinced themselves and the thing that’s always been so funny to me is that the people who say leave emotions out of work. They say it was so much anger.
Paul Ruiz
Yeah, right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Like, there’s so much emotion behind how they are saying that.
Paul Ruiz
(laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
You know what I mean? Or it’s, You can’t take things personally.
Paul Ruiz
(shouts) Why are you so emotional? Like that, right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
I think you just took it personally that I told you, you should should take it personally. And that’s okay. And let’s actually talk about regulating emotions. But the whole like, okay, when we say, don’t take it personally, we’re asking you to be dead for just a few moments –
Paul Ruiz
It’s not –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Is so billiant.
Paul Ruiz
It’s unreal. It’s unreal. Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Like, don’t – shut off your brain, shut off your your heart, shut off your, just shut up everything until I do this.
Paul Ruiz
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And then like, come back online.
Paul Ruiz
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And now let’s like move forward and be be productive.
Paul Ruiz
Right.
Sarah Noll Wilson
God I love you so much.
Paul Ruiz
Just, just bring, just just bring the part that serves me, by the way. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right. And also, I think it’s an interesting, I think your argument, I’ve never heard the argument, like you said it of, if you want to view it as I’m paying for your time means I’m paying for all of you.
Paul Ruiz
All of you. When you’re on me. I want all of you man, right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. And if you want the best of me, like I mean, that’s what it is. If you want the best of me, then it’s getting, it’s taking care of all of me.
Paul Ruiz
Sure. And it’s not the license to, to hurt others too, right? It’s not the license to, you know – Susan David calls it thought blaming, right? It’s like I shouted at you because I had a bad day. That’s not true. You shouted at me, because you wanted to shout at me. Your bad day had nothing to do with it. Right? So it’s also not the license. And I think that, that boils down to fear, right? It’s fear. That’s why the leaders say, “Don’t be emotional.” Because I don’t know how to respond to honesty. I’ve been, I’ve been struggling with it and therefore – So the leaders who actually thrive right now are the ones who have come to peace with themselves. They don’t overcomplicate it, they come to peace, they reflect a lot. Working out on self has become their priority. And it’s anything, right, there’s no prescription, and it really doesn’t matter what what serves you, then that’s great. Walks in the park, whatever, good food, you want to eat less, you want to sleep more, you want to meditate, you want to pray, you don’t want to meditate, you don’t want to pray, you want to swim, whatever it is that serves you, it really doesn’t matter. But most importantly, is they know they bring themselves full.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s – and I know I’ve said this on other shows, and I know I actually feel like I probably say this at least three to four times a week. And I think for a lot of folks, they don’t even know what it looks like to not only work on themselves, but they don’t know what’s possible on the other side of it. Again, depending on how you were raised, personally, professionally, depending on the world around you. And there is this – you know, you hit the nail on the head with this fear of I don’t know how to show up with this. It’s, it’s something we’ve been talking about a lot is when we see a leader who’s showing up differently from the norm, right. And I’ll just speak from like an American white male dominant norm perspective, like a very aggressive, command and control style. And when a leader is successful, and they’re not like that, you can feel, you can feel the threat to the identity that that person makes, right? And, and what’s so unfortunate, and honestly, what makes me sad and also what drives me in this work is there’s just so much to be gained in life, when you’re able to show up and be, to use your language, at peace with yourself and to create the space to be whole with someone else. It’s, my, I’m still on that journey. I, I wasn’t raised like this, right? Like this has been an evolution. And my life is richer. My relationships are incredible, because of how have the intentionality and so part of it is I feel a tremendous amount of, not pity. It’s not pity. I just feel sadness because there’s just so much more humanity we can experience when we’re able to step into that space of being vulnerable with ourselves and vulnerable with others.
Paul Ruiz
I honor that sadness very much. It is really a dual thing, right? You get so sad, but it’s also your inspiration. When you see it you’re you’re energized to help, you feel privileged, you also feel very abundant in the morning. Nothing else to say – my, my reflection on what you just beautifully said is about, really enjoy. You have to enjoy it, right? It’s so fun. It’s so fun to use your brain for complex problems, right? It’s so fun to actually, it’s so fun. I don’t know, right? I mean, you know, just the other day, I was talking to one of the, you know, one of the CEOs that I’m serving, and we both decided that we’re not gonna retire, right? We’re not going to retire. This whole concept of, we need to end this, this, this is fun, right? I want to be told that or I just want to I can’t remember things anymore. Okay, bye, bye. That’s the end for me. Or, you know, but I’m not gonna stop, right? I mean, I’m not gonna get ahead of it. Because biology, our system was built for that, right? We were created with, you know, in a very, very unique sense to have a brain. That brain is amazing. It’s like, invented this capacity for two people to talk across 18,000, 20,000 kilometres and make sense, right? Human beings made this by the way, you know, this, everything, everything. Glitches and all, human beings made this happen.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. (laughs)
Paul Ruiz
And it’s, and it’s wonderful, right? It’s wonderful.
Sarah Noll Wilson
When we talk about showing up in a more human way, when we talk about honoring emotions, when we talk about seeing people and being with people, one of the areas and I know this is a topic we could do multiple episodes on, but I’m just kind of curious to get some some thoughts is knowing that the work of people means there will be moments of hurt. There will be moments of regrettable events, there will be moments when we’re tired, there will be moments when we don’t realize what we said landed wrong. Like in my head I’m already playing back like oh, I want to be clear, the reason I asked if you had furnaces wasn’t because I didn’t think you had like – I don’t know, like living in Iowa sometimes people think we don’t have all the amenities of others. But I was like you’re a tropical island. Do you even need a heater? I don’t know. Like that was a just a legit question, you know, like you replay things. You go, I didn’t mean for this to come out this way. And maybe I unintendedly did it. That part of – one of the most important things that I’ve learned and am learning is the importance and power of repairing when those moments happen, because it’s not if, it’s when. And so I’m just curious to, you know, what does it look like? Or what are things for people to think about when we don’t show up at our best? And you’ve already kind of like listed off a couple of things, right? Like the thought problem, like, Oh, I’m sorry, I yelled at you because I was having a bad day. Like, that’s not, no, that’s not, that’s not it. I just, that’s a skill that I have had to work on and still work on is repairing, whether it was intentional harm or not. And it is a skill I see many people struggle with, especially in the workplace.
Paul Ruiz
The concept of repair is like vital competency right now. You must know how to do it well. It’s like, you can’t be agile without knowing how to repair, right? And we talk about agile as if it’s the easiest thing in the book, right? Most of us are right – are you? What, what are you? Ambidextrous or left handed? Right handed?
Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m right handed.
Paul Ruiz
Right. So I’m right handed too. So I can do some stuff that are, by nature, with my left, but to do with all together, juggle balls, whatever, it’s tough, right, to sync it with my brain and I always like to think of my body when it comes to that. So repair, when when I dropped some balls, right, or when – you’re right. I don’t think anyone in their right mind. Um, I’ll be very careful. I don’t know if right mind is still politically correct nowadays, but no one in their right mind would want to hurt somebody else. That’s that. I still believe that you know that the people were born with love and compassion and therefore, the problem is they went to school. They grew up and they became part of the human experience. But they are, they’re filled with love. Right? So nobody really wants to hurt somebody else but it does hurt. It does hurt to see and witness somebody else’s emotion. To receive the anger, to witness the distrust. To hear language that was said in a good tone. However it is, you know, it kind of opened up a memory and then, you know, it’s that ratatouille moment you remember, you know, the leader is talking but I’m actually seeing my mom, right? And it’s like, this is hurting me big time and then – so repair is very critical. Repair is very important. Apologizing in a manner that is not gaslighting is vital right now. Right? You know? I, I was studying that, deep diving into that a few weeks back because we had a situation about it in one of the groups that I served. It’s like, you know, Coach, I really appreciated the way he apologized to me, because afterwards, I really felt bad about myself. (laughs) It’s like, okay, and then what happened? It’s like, apparently, it’s my fault. You know, so, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, that’s a fake apology.
Paul Ruiz
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m sorry you took it that way.
Paul Ruiz
Yeah, I’m really sorry you took it that way. I am sorry I caught you at the bad mood.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Woah, yeah. I’m sorry you misunderstood me.
Paul Ruiz
Yeah, I didn’t see you – There was no “I’m dead” sign. So you know, so sorry about that. So it does happen. I hope I’m not sounding sarcastic to the audiences. But it does feel that way to the people that we serve. And I’m speaking this way, because I think now we need to hold space very well, we hear that a lot. All the great coaches are masterful at it. And the leaders need to be that, it’s not about, you cannot outsource that. I mean, you know, it’s we’re not gonna lose jobs because of what we said, Sarah, you have to know how to hold space and meet people where they are. They cannot be where you want them to be at the moment that you are holding space, it just doesn’t make sense. So you need you need to meet people where they are, you need to be very compassionate, to yourself as well, in terms of your impatience. You also know when to drop it, you know, sometimes you just have to drop it, you know, come back another day, it really is that way. But there is some sort of practice, therefore as often as I can I would. I think the whole, the whole science of feedback has been reinvented around these things that we are talking about.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Paul Ruiz
Before feedback giving was really all about performance, reputation, not do. Now it’s it’s feelings, right? It’s feelings.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah.
Paul Ruiz
What, what came up, what came up for you? This is what I’m feeling because of how we interacted. So the feedback has become like that. That’s a good sign, but you’re right. The leader, a lot of the leaders, when when it becomes so so so uncomfortable, they just really relapse big time. And when they relapse big time, just like you and me, when we relapse big time it’s not, it’s not nice to look at, it’s not nice to hear. So we repair, right? We repair, we apologize, we talk too. I do that and she’s not gonna get angry at me for saying this – to my wife, I do that constantly because you know, I can be this brilliant listener at work, but I’m a dinosaur the moment I come here, you know, I become like a velociraptor instinctive, you know, and like, I hiss a lot. And I feel very entitled as a man, but I’ve grown you know, I’ve grown. She’s helped me, she’s – before it was all about who you need to be for me. Now it’s not, it’s like, I am so happy you are exactly the opposite of who I am. Because now I am growing and I look forward to death because you are the one who will bring me there. I did say I love you to my wife, right? In not so many words, right? I did, right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Paul Ruiz
On your show? Okay, okay.
Sarah Noll Wilson
No, you did. Just so you know.
Paul Ruiz
Okay, okay. Okay. Just making sure.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs) Well, I mean, I applaud you for even being able to recognize, like, entitlement and like, and who do you need to be for me? I think many of us, like have moments of struggling with that. But some are more socially conditioned than others. But that – this is something Nick and I have been working on for the last few years is trying to be really intentional about those repair moments. When one of us loses our cool or one of us gets tired, and again, it’s not the, “Oh, I’m sorry, I’m tired.” It was, I’m really sorry. Like, you, you don’t deserve for me to treat you like that or to experience that, like, and also getting, you know, part of, part of repair that I’ve learned for myself is, sometimes if people would apologize to me about something, my discomfort was like, oh, it’s not that big of a deal. Instead of honoring it and saying, Thank you, like, I really appreciate, I really appreciate that you said that. That means a lot to me. And even that side of repair, receiving a repair, right, or, or do I feel like I need to get a last word in? Or do I feel like? Or am I apologizing because I want you to apologize. I’m like, you’re not really apologizing then if you’re trying to, like, get them. And you know, that’s something that, I mean that’s definitely something that I learned through our work with Judith and the conversational intelligence work is you have to own your role.
Paul Ruiz
It’s me.
Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, what’s the role you played? It’s me.
Paul Ruiz
It’s me.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Right? This – I did this.
Paul Ruiz
Yes, yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And that can, I know there have been times where I feel like I have to physically choke down my ego. (chuckles) And go, yeah, this is, this is on me. And I am really, really sorry, that I showed up this way. And that was the impact that I made on you.
Paul Ruiz
It’s, it’s less about self care, it’s really more about performing in life, I need to be able to forgive myself first, first and foremost, I got to forgive myself, right? I’ve got to forgive myself. I’m not, I’m not, I’m not, I’m not a bad human being, right? I’m not evil, right? But I do have memories, I do have bad habits, I do have bad frequencies too. So that’s the first thing I need to forgive. Because it’s so difficult to forgive others or to be to tender apologies that are meant and sincere and deep, if I if I have some resentment to self, so so I’ll work. So I go back to that I have to work on myself. And this is a lot, a lot of times when when, when we are working with, I’m sure you get this a lot, when we’re working with with the person who’s the absolute accountability, right? That’s, that’s the first thing, especially when they go open, you know, when they become open to life, when they become open, their souls become open, the world does come in and rush in. They become guilty, they feel very tired, you know. Therefore, they’re –
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Paul Ruiz
And then suddenly, you will notice that the conversation is about why did I do this? Why did I do that? Why? I should have, could have, would have, ‘uld have, any vuve, right? So, but in reality, the first step is, you just notice it. Notice, step one, notice it. Okay. That’s not working. Two, I got to forgive myself. Part of it is accepting my accountability to what happened, but I gotta, I gotta do it with pragmatism. I love – since, you know, you made me a little bit sentimental when you mentioned her name. In in in CIQ we call it candor with care, right? So I need, I need to be very candid, but I need to be very loving. This for me, is the bomb. To be able to really do that well. It’s been 16 years – 2016, right? How many years? Eight years, almost eight years since we learned?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Almost eight years.
Paul Ruiz
And it’s deeply embedded, it’s way ahead of its time, nobody knew that the pandemic would make it so relevant. So if, if I can accept your space, and also forgive me, it’s a good apology. It’s a good repair. And it’s a repair that will become long lasting, therefore repairs happen far between because there’s growth, because that’s what I hear a lot. I don’t know, if you hear it a lot Sarah, you know, the CEO will tell me, she would say, “Do I really have to say sorry, again?”
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Paul Ruiz
I said, No! I said no. All you need to do is stop doing it. (laughter)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Well, it’s interesting, because I – you know, they’ll talk about – people will ask me like, is there a time limit on feedback?
Paul Ruiz
Ah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And I’ll say, there’s no time limit on good feedback. There’s no time limit on praise. I think there is a time limit if you’re giving somebody constructive feedback. And what I mean by this is, if you come, if you come to me six months later and say, “You know what, for the last six months I’ve noticed this.” I’m gonna sit there go, why the hell didn’t you tell me this sooner?
Paul Ruiz
Oh wow!
Sarah Noll Wilson
But, but somebody had asked me like, this happened last week. Did I miss out on my window to apologize? And I was like, there’s no, there’s no time limit for that.
Paul Ruiz
Nope, yep.
Sarah Noll Wilson
In fact, I would argue that you coming back to that person and saying, I’ve been really thinking about this conversation –
Paul Ruiz
There you go, yep.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And I don’t, I didn’t like how it happened. And I didn’t like how I showed up. And I just want to let you know how sorry, I am. Like, you, you taking the time and coming back, even if maybe it wasn’t that big of a deal to them? Right? It shows that you were reflecting, it shows that you’re willing to take ownership. And so I’m like, there’s no time limit on that. Even if it’s even, you know, I have you know, I don’t know. I mean, I have moments like that in my relationship with Nick. You know, Nick and I have been together almost 24 years. So there’s stuff that happened early in our relationship that is like, yes, I’m a different person. I feel that way towards my parents now. Right? And it’s not, it’s not, I’m not looking for forgiveness, and I’m not beating myself up, I’m just taking ownership for that was that was hard on you, in a way I didn’t recognize at the time. And, you know, in just like, I’m really glad where we’re at now. But I think that idea of following up and repairing it. And the thing for me is the more people I have in my life who show up intentionally, even if it’s people like you, Paul that I only get to interact with, although I need to change that two years is just too damn long.
Paul Ruiz
(laughter)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Is that it, it almost always deepens the relationship even further. Right? Not just, not just the apology, but the ability for us to be candid with each other, through that lens of care, that ability for us to have those hard conversations, the ability for us to witness each other’s humanity. Almost always, when it when that when that repair comes from a deep, authentic place and that’s been my experience is it’s almost always deepen the relationship further. Yeah.
Paul Ruiz
And you, that last 5-10 minutes, what you did was you just transcended repair to healing. It becomes healing now.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Mm, Paul.
Paul Ruiz
Right? So it’s transcripted to you, you’ve just defined how to bring repair to a higher level of humanity, which is called healing one another, rght? Let’s, let’s it’s – because it is repair, it is repaired, right? Just the word itself. Like, let’s come together again – repaired, right. Let’s come together again, let’s sew the, let’s sew the wound, let’s close the gap. Repair. But what you just said about allowing time, allowing reflection, being very intentional, deep thought, practice, writing it down, not because for theatrics, but because I want to say the right thing. I want to, I want to make up, I want to make amends, I want to show love, this is healing. What you just did is you elevated repair into something very, there is no other description, but deep. It is very deep. It is deep, it is lasting, it creates roots. This is, this is – we use that a lot in strategy, it’s called foundational, right? It becomes now foundation for complex things. So repair in the context of relationship before task. That’s, that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s solid. That’s like, okay, so we can actually go through this, right? That’s essentially what you’re telling one another. Let’s go through this very hard pivot. Let’s go through this very hard market shift. Let’s go through this very complex project together because I am safe with you, man. I can get hurt and then you know how to repair and I can do the same. I grew from you. You grew from me, what do you call that? We just, we essentially repaired and, and healed so yeah, I mean, thanks. You were, you were giving me a little bit of a teary eye when you were talking about it, because that’s the tough part. That’s, that’s the, that’s the part where the struggle resides.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. Paul, my – I was this year, years old today, in looking at the word repair differently, because of you.
Paul Ruiz
Me to! Me too, I just, I just thought about that now because of you.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(exhales) I, I love being in conversation with you. And I, I want to just keep talking to you forever, and I can’t because I need to let you get on with your day. But we’re going to have you back and it’s not going be two years and just know I’m going to be reaching out to you. I just need my, I need my Paul mentor time.
Paul Ruiz
We can shoot the breeze and just –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh yeah, no, I definitely want to do that and just catch up. Okay, well, we have audience listening right now so we can we can talk about this afterwards.
Paul Ruiz
But, ladies and gentlemen, this is us shooting the breeze. (laughter) What I just said has no difference. It’s just recorded.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughter) It’s just us. I, I feel like this beautiful place of wrapping up, of, we, we, we repair to heal is so, is so beautiful and profound. And I guess I just let me let me turn it over to you just you know, what final thoughts do you have as we wrap up our conversation that you want to say to feel complete?
Paul Ruiz
I will address the audience very directly. You are complete. You’re perfect. Exactly everything you need is there. Everything is there. You, you are whole, you’re beautiful. You are, you are a being, you are human, you are alive, you are also not perfect. There is nothing lost in forgiveness. Everything is gained. You grow, you grow big time. You grow big time, you grow. Growth is about a struggle. It’s about breaking ground. It’s rooting, right? So you know, just just work on it. Work on yourself. Love yourself, you gotta celebrate the wins, celebrate big time. You know, if you can just have an inverse investment in time on blaming yourself to celebrating, love and love and life becomes one. Thank you, both of you, Nick, Sarah, the show. You know, to everybody, Please Don’t Feed the Elephants!
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Paul Ruiz
Just, just, you know, just just –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Thanks for plugging my book.
Paul Ruiz
Yes. Just, just, you know, just, just be kind to one another. And those conversations become really rich and deep.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it. I love it. I love you. Paul, for people who want to connect with you. What’s the best way for them to do that?
Paul Ruiz
Same same. So Leaders in Transition with Paul Ruiz dot ph. You can just Google my name. I’m from the Philippines.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And we’ll share it in the show notes.
Paul Ruiz
Yes, I’ll share it in the show notes. All of my social media. I’m on Instagram, but I’m not really on social media so much intentionally, to be honest, to everybody, to just really be absolutely honest to all of you. I’m, I really relished human interaction. I’ve grown so in love being with people. And it has, it doesn’t mean I have to be face to face. It can be virtually but I really just love to be with people. And then I just love to press the repeat button the next day.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I love it. You’re such a gift. Thank you so much for being willing to come on the show and your –
Paul Ruiz
Oh, wow. It’s a privilege.
Sarah Noll Wilson
You know, and our flexibility together and navigating. Trust me. I feel like it’s all on ours. I was, I was so – we’re recording this, folks. My time is 5:30 on a Friday night. And I, there’s not many people that I would be like, Yep, let’s do a Friday night. I was so excited today.
Paul Ruiz
Happy Hour!
Sarah Noll Wilson
It was happy hour with Paul. I was like it is it is healthy healing hour with Paul. And I’m just, I’m so grateful that you came back. And just thank you for being you. And that’s it. Thanks for being on the show, Paul.
Paul Ruiz
You’re most welcome. You and Nick are a gift. Love you both.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Our guests this week was my friend and mentor Paul Ruiz and two things, three things and I’m looking at my list. RBT relationships before tasks, that’s just brilliant. Love is a bonus. Love that idea. But the thing that I’m really going to chew on was that insight of literally the word repair is to re pair like how do we get back to being in a pair again, I just think that’s so brilliant. And as always folks, near and far, we do love to hear from you and we’ve just really enjoyed the emails we’ve been getting recently. So please send us an email at podcast @ sarahnollwilson dot com. Again that’s podcast @ sarahnollwilson dot com. Let us know what resonated for you. What came up for you? What questions do you have? What opened up for you? And again, we love it, we read it, we respond to it. And we want to hear from you. If you like the show, please be sure to rate and review and subscribe on your preferred podcast platform. The more ratings and reviews we get, the more we’re able to get exposure and bring on great guests like Paul Ruiz. And if you want to become a supporter of the show, you can do so by becoming a patron. You can go to patreon dot com slash conversations on conversations, where 100% of your financial support goes to supporting the team that makes this happen. So a couple of cool things that happen. Not only are you supporting the team, you get some pretty incredible swag and you get early episodes that are ad free, so a lot of good stuff if you support the show in that way.
Speaking of the team that you will support, let’s give them a shout out. To our producer Nick Wilson, to our sound editor Drew Noll, to our transcriptionist Becky Reinert, and our marketing consultant Jessica Burdg and the rest of the SNoWCo crew. I’m so grateful to be working with you all. My friends, this has been another episode of Conversations on Conversations. Thank you so much for your time and remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others we can change the world. So till next week, please be sure to rest, rehydrate and I’ll see you again soon.
Sarah Noll Wilson is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. She aims to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching and Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health.