Episode 090: A Conversation on Nurturing Growth with Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell

Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell for a discussion on the ways in which leaders can influence the growth and development of the people they serve.

 

For almost two decades, Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell has been helping organizations and leaders become more effective and inclusive through her engaging diversity and inclusion professional learning sessions, leadership development programs and equity & cultural proficiency coaching. Gilmara has worked with HR managers, chief diversity officers, and other leaders to create more inclusive work environments.

Gilmara has collaborated with organizations from the private and public sector, in a variety of industries. Gilmara has supported organizations develop strategic plans, create equity driven monitoring tools, create more inclusive cultures, and learn more about equity-driven leadership . Born in Brazil, Gilmara moved to the United States in 2001.

She holds a Bachelor of Multicultural Education from FUMEC University (Brazil) and a MSE in School Counseling from Drake University. Gilmara has a focused her doctoral studies in Organizational Behavior with a focus on trust in the workplace.

 

Website: www.sarahnollwilson.com

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/gilmara-vila-nova-mitchell

Email: gilmara@sarahnollwilson.com

 

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson. And joining me back today is my dear colleague and friend Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell. For those of you who may not remember, let me tell you a little bit about Gilmara because she is one of my favorite humans in the whole world that I get to spend time with. For almost two decades, Gilmara has been helping organizations and leaders become more effective and inclusive through her engaging diversity and inclusion professional learning sessions, leadership development programs, and equity and cultural proficiency coaching. Gilmara has worked with HR managers, chief diversity officers and other leaders to create more inclusive work environments. Gilmara has collaborated with organizations from the private to the public sector in a variety of industries. She supports organizations to develop strategic plans, create equity driven monitoring tools, create more inclusive cultures, and learn more about equity driven leadership. Born in Brazil, Gilmara moved to the United States in 2001. She holds a Bachelor of Multicultural Education from FUMEC University in Brazil and an MSE Master of Science of Education from the School of Counseling from Drake University. She also has focused her doctoral studies in organizational behavior with a focus on trust in the workplace. Gilmara, welcome back to the show. I mean, you and I, we talk all the time, it’s just not every day that we turn on the recording. (laughter)

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

True! Thank you for having me back.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

I’m, I’m so excited to explore this topic with you about the idea of how do we effectively develop other people? How do we build capacity in other people? But before we hop into that, it’s been a few months, it’s been a bit since we had you on the show. And so while you and I get to connect on a regular basis, what would you want the audience to know about who you are now (laughter) since last time we chatted?

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

Oh, so much has happened. I, I just, one thing that has been happening for me is with spring the kids have had a lot more activities. And so we are on the go enjoying the nicer weather, but very, very busy, which is fun and exhausting all at the same time. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah, yeah, I’m sure. It’s a, well there’s just yet something, especially for those of us who are in places that have a winter, or we sort of had a winter this year, the sun starts shining, and you just want to get out. 

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

Yes.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

I’m excited to dig into this topic. I know that this is something that you are very passionate about. It’s work we do. And so many of us aren’t equipped for what it looks like to actually develop people. So something that, you know, I’ve mentioned on previous episodes, is this idea that most people in management and to be clear, sorry, I’m going to stop myself, we are going to talk about it through the lens of work. And these are also skills and approaches and mindsets you can use for supporting the growth and development of your children, the growth and development of your family members, of your friends, whatever that might look like. So I just want to give that context. But one of the things that we talk about a lot is how most people in management are what we would call accidental managers. They’re promoted because of their technical expertise. We give them humans and we say, don’t screw them up too much, essentially. And we expect them to have this ability to just magically know and understand humans and understand how to grow and develop them. And then we’re confused when people aren’t able to be successful in that. And so I’m just curious to, you know, get your reaction to that. And when you think about this idea, particularly through the lens of work, why is understanding how to develop people so important?

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

Thank you for that question. I think about that often, as we are all very passionate about continuous improvement and lifelong learning. I feel that in my opinion, a leader’s primary responsibility is to nurture the people’s growth. And a lot of times I see, Sarah, when people transition from excelling at a technical role to becoming a leader of a team, a lot of times they underestimate the power of nurturing other people’s growth. And I feel that’s one of the number one predictors of engagement. You know, it’s to realize that you’re becoming better at something. That somebody is opening opportunity and access for you to grow and develop and master a skill and to depart, to depart from that position where you knew what to expect, you were good at what you were doing, to learning how to nurture other people’s growth and create their own path for them is a huge challenge sometimes. Because we don’t want to, we don’t want to separate from that identity that got us to where we are. But when the promotion happens, and you become the leader, your job is really to take care of the people who will do the work that you were so good at doing before. And part of taking care of them is to identify their passion, what they’re curious about, what they want to learn, and provide resources and opportunities for them to do so.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

One of the things – I completely agree, you know, weird, I was just having this conversation with a former colleague, actually, that I had lunch with today. And how one of your main jobs as a leader is to become irrelevant. And I mean, that not from the standpoint of you still don’t add value, you just add value in a different way. And because you’ve developed the people around you to be able to do what you can do. And Amy and I even had this moment of celebration as a company, she asked me this question, she said, So what are the tasks that only you can do? So we can make sure that we prioritize that. And I realized for the first time, I think there’s nothing that only I have to do. And that felt like a really good moment of celebration. And to your point, it can be really easy for us to hold on to that identity of what made us successful. One of the things that you won’t, you won’t talk about this in the way that I want to talk about it, because you’re humble, and you don’t like to focus on yourself. But part of the reason why I wanted you on the show, and so a reminder for folks, Gilmara is one of our like amazing long term strategic partners, I have had the privilege of watching her work and a number of different situations, both in her full time role in working with our clients. And one of the things that you have done so consistently, Gilmara, is you have worked with people who were overlooked, who were passed over, who assumptions were made about, and you didn’t buy into that story that other people had about them. And, and have been able to support them, to encourage them, to empower them, to help them see what they were capable of. And that’s one of, honestly, like, I get a little misty thinking about it. It’s one of those, it’s, I think it’s one of your greatest gifts as just like a human, is your ability to bring out the best, especially in people that other people have overlooked. And the thing that Teresa and I we were talking about this morning, as we were reflecting on a client’s situation, is that you you know that there’s a bit of a long game, when it comes to behavior change. You know that it’s a long game when it comes to supporting people. And so I’m curious when you think about and I hope that you’re like comfortable thinking about this. But I want to know, what are some of the things you’re very intentional about because I know you’re a very intentional person, when it comes to developing other people. 

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

Thank you for that question. I often think about what kinds of opportunities can I create for this person. And sometimes, Sarah, I think in the way we organize our work, there are multiple opportunities that we can take advantage of that we don’t if we’re not intentional about thinking about this, sometimes I see people think of talent development as the talent development office job. And in reality, I think it’s not. It’s every leaders job to develop people. And so one thing that I do very intentionally is, every time I, I lead the committee or a team, when I plan the team meetings, I enlist the help of the team members to plan and co-facilitate the meetings with me. And so they, in doing that, a lot of times they are younger professionals who don’t lead teams yet, they get an opportunity to learn how to prepare an agenda, how to lead the meeting, how to work with PowerPoint, how to embrace different perspectives during the meeting, when things get heated up, how to respond in a way that is respectful when you disagree. And I feel like it’s a huge opportunity that doesn’t take much. So there is a team that I lead that helps me do some of the DI work I do and every month one of them co-facilitates and plans a meeting with me. And then they also, we also I liked somebody to lead our collective learning portion of the meeting for six months. And we rotate that role every single six months. And so, in doing that, first I learned in a different way I would learn otherwise, like last month, we learned with TikTok videos, because that’s what the person who was in charge of our collective learning decided to use. I don’t even have a TikTok account and so for me, that was like a huge, a huge difference. And I was like, wow, I am going to learn something meaningful with TikTok. (laughter) And he was like, absolutely. And I loved that. And so I love having their stamp on the meeting format, and on how we do things together, and giving them that opportunity to also learn how to do, how to build a team in an effective way. The other thing that I do very intentionally is part of my role, and yours is to facilitate a lot of meetings, is small group coaching. And every time I have an opportunity to design and plan a cohort, for a group to learn, I intentionally invite somebody who has never done that, to do that with me. And in doing so you not only learn from that person, but you offer the participants a different perspective and take, and you also give them an opportunity to learn how to facilitate learning, when it’s not part of their main role. Because that should be everybody’s role to help each other grow.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

There, there’s, there’s a few things you say that I want, you’ve said that I want to go back to. As you were talking, it made me think of, I had this professor when I was getting my masters. And he would say, I don’t want you to live up to my expectations, I want you to live into your possibilities. And, and that’s what I hear in you is that even in bringing them along, you’re not bringing them along to do it your way. You know, and I want to invite listeners to – I mean, this is, this is why, listeners, we love Gilmara so much listen to the language she’s using. And I learned something and they bring something different to the table. And I and everyone else has a different perspective. So that it isn’t about bringing people in to shape them for your way. But for them to bring, you know, to use your language, their stamp to the table. So that was something that was coming up really strongly for me. And if we go back to the first thing you said, which was, what are the kinds of opportunities I can create for them and constantly looking for those? Because so often, I feel well, there’s a couple of thoughts coming up for me. Sometimes I think we look at, we’re looking for opportunities, maybe I’d say like a big O opportunity, right, like a new project to lead, a new role opportunity. And it’s in those micro moments of opportunities. It’s in the, hey, you’re not going to run this whole committee. But today, you’re going to run this meeting. And that’s an opportunity. And sometimes that’s what I see miss. It’s I know, I struggled with that when I was a team member of when I was looking for opportunities for development, I was looking for bigger opportunities, and not realizing literally every meeting, every conversation, every project that I’m working on, or someone else’s working on is an opportunity. 

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

Yes. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

And that’s such a great, that’s such a great perspective. 

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

And Sarah, can I add one thing? 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Please. Always.

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

I have worked really hard the last past two years to do it differently when I create opportunities for people. Instead of identifying the people that might be able to jump in and collaborate with me. I am doing it in a way that they self select. So somebody that I didn’t think would be interested in that might raise their hand and say I want to do that. And that has changed everything for me because a lot of times we tend to handpick people. And our bias comes in play, into play. And we pick similar people over and over and over again, the people that were the most comfortable with. And what I have started doing is I show the team, these are our goals for this year. These are opportunities. Can you tell me one thing you want to learn? And one thing you want to do? And so these are all things that are outside their main job description and their main role. But I like to expand their opportunities in a way that they are starting to do things that will serve them no matter what kind of job they have. Such as leading a meeting, facilitating learning, planning an agenda and embracing difficult conversations and things like that. We don’t spend enough time with people giving them opportunities to do that before they become a leader. And I like to be proactive and preparing younger professionals to do that well, so that when they transition to leadership, they’ve done that before, they know what it looks like to be successful doing that.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah, yeah. Well, and that, and that idea of, you know, inviting people, encouraging people, what do you, what do you do, how do you navigate a situation where maybe somebody doesn’t think they’re qualified or ready to do something, and maybe they’re not comfortable volunteering? I’m sure you see people, and have worked with people that maybe have held back or maybe, I don’t want to say played it safe, but maybe didn’t go after something that you could see, you’ll be really successful, but they couldn’t see them, see that themselves? How do you approach those situations?

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

I think we start with small steps, right? Instead of, instead of leading the learning for six months, why don’t you do it one week. And then if that goes well, when you want to continue, continue, I think breaking down small steps sometimes helps people who are more timid or insecure, take the leap. And I also think providing a little more support behind the scenes. So I have invited recently, one person told me that they wanted to lead an ERG that I was putting together. And they were very uncertain about their abilities to lead the team. And so I told them, I said, I will help you more behind the scenes, so that you feel completely comfortable. And that’s what I did. Instead of meeting with the leader, having a monthly meeting, like I typically do, I met with that person twice a month. And so they felt a little more comfortable doing it, and they did a phenomenal job. And I always tell them, the goal here is not perfection. It’s learning. As long as you’re learning, it doesn’t need to be perfect. Okay, I will never forget, I invited one of my colleagues to lead a cultural connections session that I plan every month, about a DI topic. And I always invite somebody to, I asked who wants to do this one, and then invite the team to take turns leading them. And they’re usually done with external guests speakers. And this particular one, the young professional who volunteered to lead had never done anything like that before. And he was, he was a very special person, very good member of our team. And struggled a little bit to communicate sometimes when he was nervous. And so I knew it’d be a challenge for him. I was super excited he felt confident enough to volunteer. And he did a phenomenal job, in my opinion, based on what I knew that was going on for him and how anxious he was, I thought it was a phenomenal outcome. Well, the next day, I heard from a couple people, and they said to me, why did you ask him to do this? He doesn’t know how to do that. And I said, that’s exactly why I thought that having him would be a great opportunity, because he had never done that, he didn’t know how to do it. And I wasn’t looking for perfection. I was looking for him to stretching himself and growing. And that’s what happened. So for me, the outcome was accomplished. It was perfect. No. Who cares it wasn’t perfect. I didn’t, I wasn’t looking for perfection. The guest was super well treated, said some amazing things, the event happened on time, we did everything we needed to do. And he learned. And the next time he did that, it was a lot smoother for him. But I feel like sometimes we tend to pick people over and over and over again, that do the things all the time, because we know they’re going to do it well. And we’re not thinking about expanding opportunity and access.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah. And recognizing that the support needed might be different. Your situation, this example illustrates so beautifully, what it looks like to lead from the side and lead from behind. And that’s something that I always, I think about when you’re in a leadership position, whether it’s formal or informal, that there are times when you should lead out front. There might be situations where maybe you need to be, you know, more of a decision maker or directive or whatever the case is. But then there are times when you walk alongside people and then part of it is walking from behind and that’s that’s what I hear in the example that you’re sharing with him is, I’m gonna walk alongside you, I’m gonna give you even more support from behind. And one of the things that I know we hear a lot is, (chuckles) I don’t know why it’s making me laugh, but not, it’s not a good laugh, but we just don’t have time. And, and there’s such an an epidemic, I feel like of time when it comes to the workplace. What are the things that you see that either get in people’s way or they think gets in their way?

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

I think the most common roadblock I see in this is in involving others, and helping them learn is, honestly, it’s patience. We’re used to having everything so instantaneous, and so fast, and on demand that we have lost our capacity to be patient and humans learn at different paces. I’m a very slow learner. I’m not a fast, quick learner. And so for a person to be able to teach me, it takes a different pace. And if you speed up, I get overwhelmed and I don’t learn one thing. And so I feel like we have to practice patience, to be able to really provide people opportunities to learn and develop and grow with psychological safety in a way that it’s not paralyzing, in a way that it’s exciting.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah, that point of patience. Just this week, I’ve heard two or three separate occasions, essentially, the same thing said. I gave this person feedback, they were better for a week, and then they slid into place. So now we need to hold them accountable, or now we need to, and part of your job as a manager of people, will say this, right, humans, is understanding that learning looks different for different people. It looks different for different tasks. There are things that we can pick up really easily and quickly. And there are things that are going to take time. And earlier when I said you’re so good playing the long game. It’s because, it’s not, it’s, it’s patience, and intentional acts, right? It’s not just giving people time, but it’s being really intentional about the, at least this is what I observe in you, is giving people the time plus very intentional support, which you’re already explaining about. And there is this tendency to to be like, well, they didn’t pick it up in a week. Guess, guess what? I haven’t changed most of my behaviors (laughs) in a week. If I, if I did, I would be fit, I would be playing the accordion on a professional level, I would be, you know, opening my foccacia bakery by now or whatever, whatever the case might be. 

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

(laughs) Yes.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

And that mindset, and you know, what’s interesting about patience. I was just talking to one of your clients this week, and one of the things they said was, she’s really helped me to have more patience. 

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

Oh!

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

And so just so you know, you got some love.

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

That’s good. I feel that, especially with non technical skills, which is what I’m really interested in teaching people and helping them learn. It’s not a fast, it’s not a fast journey. Because humans are unpredictable. For you to learn how to handle difficult conversations, how to self regulate, when emotions are high, how to, you know, be thoughtful, when you’re caught on the spot. It takes time and a lot of practice and a lot of opportunity. How to embrace diverse perspectives when you really disagree with something somebody’s saying. And so, technical learning can happen at a different speed, I feel. Non-technical learning, the stuff that I am very passionate about and that you are very passionate about, takes time. If you really want to do transformational work, and leave an imprint on how people and organizations do things. You have to be very persistent and very patient. And some days this is easier than in others, but I feel like that is what I see people liking the most, when they need to nurture growth on in others. You know, we want results immediately. And Sarah, you know this, but sometimes we work with clients and it’s an uphill battle at the moment. And then three years down the road. We visit with them and they’re applying everything that we worked on. But it takes time for things to take roots, especially when it’s transformational work. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah, and when you’re – and that’s a key, key phrase right there is transformational. Because when we’re talking about that interpersonal intrapersonal, even the conceptual work, you, the risk can be higher when you mess it up. And the reality and the truth is you will, you know, you, you and I work, along with our colleagues and, you know, other people in our lives, we work really hard to build these muscles. And there will always be times when we miss the mark. There will always be times when we have a regrettable event. And, and there’s a, you know – learning to build the comfort with the discomfort and the lack of perfection and everything that comes with that, you know. It’s not enough to take a three hour class in how to have a difficult conversation. Every conversation is different and every moment and, and I love so much how you’re talking about some of those key behaviors. And again, I just want to draw our listener’s attention to some of those behaviors that Gilmara is talking about is how do we role model and support people in hearing perspectives that are different and difficult to hear? How do we disagree in a way that is effective? How do we regulate our emotions when the other person gets heated? What does that look like? How do we, and that’s not as simple – I was just meeting with an older colleague who used to be on the team. That’s not something you just give someone a job aid to, and say, (laughs) Do this and figure it out? 

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

Yes.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

What, you know, what are the other things that you observe that get in a formal leader’s way of being able to truly nurture and develop somebody in a meaningful way? 

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

One thing that I see often happening, especially when the leader was extremely successful in a technical role, and transitions to becoming a team’s leader, is they have no idea sometimes how to provide resources when somebody is failing, because they didn’t fail enough. They don’t know how to navigate struggling, because they didn’t struggle, they were excelling. They’re, the most, the majority of the time they weren’t in technical role. And so I feel like you learn how to navigate productive struggling by failing. And so when they have a team member who is failing and needing extra support, their only resource sometimes is to let the person go, or to, is sort of the blame game, you know, trying to find reasons why that person was a bad hire, or why they can’t do it. And, instead of looking at organizational issues, our additional resources, or a mentorship program or a sponsorship program, it’s all about the individual. And I feel there is little effort in really providing some meaningful resources, so the person can then start performing. And a lot of times I feel the lack of psychological safety leads people to paralyze and not perform. And then they can’t learn, they can’t grow, they can’t have honest conversations because they’re terrified. If the environment is toxic, it’s not productive. And so I see that a lot. I always learn a lot about how somebody is as a leader, when a team member is struggling, when you look at how they respond to struggle, and how they support the weakest link.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

That’s such a nuanced perspective that I don’t know that that’s come up in our conversations before, so I appreciate you bringing that forward because that struggle can also be maybe because you didn’t struggle career wise, or that what sets you up for success might not be something I can do. Right? You and I have lots of conversations around, you know as women, and in your case, right, as an immigrant and a woman of color that the the cost benefit analysis of certain behaviors are different. And, and you’re right, I just had never thought about it through that lens of if if you haven’t struggled with, well, it must be real like they probably have struggled with the people side of thing, you know. And and that quickness to be like, well, no, they’re not, they’re not good enough, they’re not ready, they’re not, whatever the case is. And we were talking a little bit about this before we started recording, and this is a conversation that Teresa and I, we’re having a lot lately, and deepening our kind of thinking around it. But so often in organizations, we hear the word accountability a lot, like we need to, we need to hold people accountable. We need, we need people, you know, we need them to take ownership. And, and it’s, it’s a very sort of top down approach. It’s also, there’s sort of a, an unspoken tone of punishment, right? Accountability. There’s like if and if you don’t, then this, and again, I’m not suggesting that people don’t need to have clear expectations and held to those expectations. But we almost never hear organizations talk about, and here’s the support we’re going to provide. And, and Teresa and I know this comes from educational research and theory, is when, when the expectations are high, the support has to match the expectations. 

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

Yes.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

And when the gap is significant from where somebody is behaviorally or skill development wise to where you want them to go, then the skill, then the support needs to match that. And so often I think that we fall into this trap, and I know I did this as a manager, too, that I wasn’t as intentional about what is the support I’m giving this person to set them up for success, but was more focused on well, how do I hold them accountable –

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

Absolutely.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

So they do what I say.

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

I totally agree with that. I in fact, I believe that it’s not possible to hold people accountable before we give them a chance to learn. How can we hold people accountable, if we haven’t provided them an opportunity to learn and develop in their area? A lot of times I see accountability criteria being put in place before people give an opportunity to that individual to learn about that. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah, yeah.

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

And I feel that’s irresponsible. You know, that’s just not fair. And I honestly, I feel the most productive cultures I have seen working away that you don’t have to hold people accountable, they hold themselves accountable. And to me, that’s the ideal state is when you can be self reflective and self awareness enough that you can say, Sarah, I dropped the ball with this. I’m not at my best right now. I will do it again. I will make this better. You know, and you don’t have to even tell me that I know and I will acknowledge it and own it and fix it. But when there is that culture of I need to hold you accountable because you’re not capable of doing that, and you won’t to do that, that alone tells you everything you need to know. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah, well, and that’s where that psychological safety becomes really important. And it becomes critical for the leader to be able to role model that. And, and the ownership isn’t because I was told to have ownership. It wasn’t because I was told we need to have extreme ownership, we need to it wasn’t – gosh, (chuckles) my friend recently was talking about how in one of their town halls, the answer to like, well, what do we do in this situation? And the response was, it’s the adult rule, just act like an adult. And I was like, wow, cool. Cool. Like that, because we think you’re acting like a child now. And – all right, so we’re talking about this idea of ownership and how a lot of times how it’s presented is is like, like asking people, like you need to take ownership instead of creating a culture where people want to. And just for listeners, we had it, we had to do a quick little life pause (laughter) while some sound things were happening. And we both got really fired up about some stuff so now I want to bring it back on. So, so Gilmara, tell me about your feelings related to the word accountability.

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

(laughs) I do not like that term, because I think it means different things for different people. First of all, what do we mean when we say accountability, you know? We assume everybody looks at that word the same and they don’t. Secondly, I don’t like it because it has a big brother is watching kind of tone and I’m gonna catch you dropping the ball and I will let you know, I’ll make sure I let you know about that. And I also don’t like that it creates this monitoring, external monitoring role for people who shouldn’t be monitoring others, you know, and so –

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah.

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

I have a really intense negative reaction to that term. I love to receive feedback, I embrace that. I think when feedback comes your way, and comes in a way that it’s intentionally designed to support and help, it’s the best gift you can receive. Accountability in the way I see happen, is just a way to catch people doing something that isn’t positive, and rub that in their face. And I’m not a big fan of that kind of behavior. So I do not like that term. I don’t use it. And I firmly believe we have to give people a chance to grow and learn before we come with the accountability police, you know.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah, well, and again, this this is, I’ve, I have seen it. I’ve seen you do this over and over again, that people who others have written off as not as qualified, not as skilled, not as can’t take this on they, they’re just they’re not ready for it. Miraculously, when you’re working with them not only do they show up and are ready for it, but like they, they, they find their sense of mission and purpose. Because you value them and you show them how they’re valuable and you provide the support. And and that’s so fascinating to me. And that idea of like the Big Brother, we we just recently saw a job description for like a leadership development role. And one of the sentences was, must be – what was it, it was something to the effect of must work in an environment where everything you create will be critiqued. And the word critiqued stood out to Teresa, Brandon and I.

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

Yes.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

And we’re like I, we hear critiqued and we hear criticized.

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

Yes.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

You know, and I understood maybe that’s not what they mean, but it has a different, like, tone, –

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

I agree.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

My interpretation, because we all interpret words differently, is, you know, having something reviewed, you know, having an iterative process, a continuous improvement process, whatever you want to use. Yeah, and, and I, I do, I do see people writing people off all the time. And maybe they’re writing them off because of biases they have, which we all have, we know this. Maybe they’re writing them off because, you know, maybe it’s really not the technical fit for them, right, like, maybe they’re not the right company, or this isn’t the right role for the person. But it is amazing that when you get if you get somebody in there, who knows actually how to support and nurture somebody, they’ll always thrive in a way or often will thrive in a way that they couldn’t before. 

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

I agree.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

What? Oh, no, share your thoughts.

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

I think people respond to the way you see them. When you see potential in people and you believe in them, they behave accordingly. They believe it.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Absolutely. 

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

And when you think they’re stupid, they act stupid in front of you. And you don’t need to say that to them. We are wired to read nonverbals. And so we’ll pick up on that without the person having to explain. Every time I go facilitate a session, I look at the participants and I think these people are smart, they have a lot to teach me. They are people who are full of experiences and potential so that I treat them accordingly. And they respond to it. When you go and you think I know everything and they don’t know anything, then they won’t engage as much because they will feel their arrogance and they won’t do their share or pick up their part, you know?

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah, it’s – I mean, and it is a long, well researched phenomenon, right, called the Pygmalion effect, that it’s the self fulfilling prophecy. Which is why, which is why something I become passionate about and also I’m trying to be very deliberate on for myself is what is the language I use, even when I think about certain people or think about certain groups? Because exactly that, and you know, I mean, anyone listening just like google, the Pygmalion effect and essentially the studies that have been done over and over and over again, basically, it’s like, a teacher has been told, hey, these are high performing students, and they treat them as such. And guess what? They perform higher. And then they’re told another group is low performing. And they treat them as such. And they end up low performing, when really, it was just a mix of both. 

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

Yes.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

And so we have to be aware of that. And, and that’s something that, again, I’m working on for myself. And it’s something I’m working on with people when they say things like, I mean, I think they’re an idiot, but I’m going to support them. Like, no, you’re not supporting them if you think they’re an idiot. If you think, if you are using language like entitled, if you’re using language, an idiot, they’re, whatever it is, something just came up this week, and somebody was saying, you know, it’s hard when, you know, we have this person that, you know, the team needs to work with and yeah, they’re just kind of an idiot. And I can’t tell the team that but in my head, I’m thinking they’re an idiot. And I’m like, so let’s pause on that. 

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

Yes. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

How does that shape how you show up with that person? And how does that shape how you show up with your team about that person? You can, you can accept that maybe somebody isn’t technologically proficient, you can accept where somebody is in their skill level. But that’s not the same as, you know, being judgmental or contemplative. And, and something that I often see is people think that because I’m not saying it, just like you were saying, that it doesn’t impact how I show up. I’m like, oh, it is impacting how you show up. 

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

Absolutely.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

And, and you and I, you know, we both have had times where I’m really struggling with this person, and you said it best one time, like I have to, what can I love about this client? 

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

Yes. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

So I can shift to that place, so I can show up as my best for them. 

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

Yes. If you can’t find at least a couple things you love and appreciate about the human being you’re working with, you can’t serve them. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah.

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

You know, you have to have some sort of respect and admiration and love evolved to be able to treat that person with the neuro pathways that you need to be generous and graceful and communicate in a way that it’s dignifying otherwise, you cannot serve or lead them.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah, yeah. And so you know, when you think about, if you want to be somebody who can bring the best out, you have to be able to see the best that’s in there. That, you know, when I was going through my coaching certification, that was one of the big mantras, if you will, was the person in front of you is resourceful and whole. They are creative, resourceful and whole. They just need to tap into that voice. So they need to tap into that wisdom and insight. But they’re not coming to you from a place of deficit. 

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

Yes. I totally agree with that. And, you know, are you going to love everything about everybody? No, there are parts of people that you might not agree with, or love or align with. But everybody has something good to offer. And if you look deeply you find it. And if you can’t find it, you better give another person an opportunity to serve that individual because you won’t be able to. 

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah. This is why you’re so good at what you do, Gilmara. This is why I’m so grateful that we have you to support and love on our clients, and, and honestly are a walking testament of what it looks like to fully and wholly support somebody. Again –

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

Thank you.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Yeah, you, you – all – it makes me wonder, when I see how you show up, again, for people who often get overlooked or dismissed or minimized and, and to see their growth and to see their confidence and to see their ability come through. Sometimes I just wonder, gosh, like what would the world be like if there was just a little bit more Gilmaras in positions of power and authority. 

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

Oh, you’re too kind. Thank you, Sarah.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Thank you so much for coming on the show. Just thank you for being you and, and exploring this idea of support. And the other thing that I want to say, as we wrap up and then I’ll give you the final the final word (laughter) is, is a reflection for us as individuals is what, what gets in the way, you know, of me being able to show up? Is it that I’m maybe making a judgement, is it that I’m worried about not adding value myself? Is it that I’m tied to my identity of I’m the person who’s the expert, and see if you can just like test that assumption, and show up fully for the people around you. What would be the final thing you want people to think about related to this idea of developing others? 

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

That we don’t decide what’s important for other people in terms of their development. We ask them, where they want to go, what they’re passionate about, and what’s the best way to get there. People are the experts on themselves, they should guide us in providing them and opening that path for them. And so a lot of times we, with the best intentions, want to decide for people their learning paths is going to be and that doesn’t work. And we miss the boat. And so when you are trying to create opportunities for people, ask them, involve them in the planning, of how that’s going to look like and where they’re going to go and they’re going to be a lot more engaged and a lot more fulfilled. But I also wanted to thank you for being such a good friend and colleague and always having my back. You are just so supportive when we are celebrating or when we are struggling, and I appreciate that so much. It’s nice to have you in my corner. Thank you for being so supportive and kind.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Like wise. Right back at you babe. And while we continue to extend our goodbye, (laughs) Gilmara, what’s the best way for people to connect with you if they want to learn about working with you and getting the opportunity to partner.

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

Well, they can check your website Sarah Noll Wilson dot com Or they can find me on LinkedIn. Gilmara Mitchell, and I will be very very happy to connect and meet new friends so please reach out.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

And we’ll post that that information, it’s Gilmara at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com is a direct email. We’ll post that in the show notes and highly recommend, she’s just a good human to know. So – 

 

Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell  

Thanks, Sarah. Thanks for having me.

 

Sarah Noll Wilson  

Thanks Gilmara. 

 

Our guest this week has been Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell. And while I always learn something from her, whether it’s conversations like this or a late night text, one of the things I’m holding on to is that idea of we can’t start with accountability if we haven’t given space for learning. And it’s such a simple way of thinking about it. But it’s such a profound shift that we often don’t see happening in the workplace. And as always, I want to hear from you. What resonated for you? What came up for you? What questions did this conversation spur or even if you want to tell us a time that somebody supported and developed you, you can send us a message at podcast at Sarah Noll Wilson dot com, where I read and respond to everyone that reaches out. And if you want to support the show, please be sure to rate and review us on your preferred podcast platform. This helps us gain exposure so that we can continue to bring on great guests and have great conversations like the one we had today with Gilmara. And if you want to support the show in another way, consider becoming a patron. You can go to patreon dot com slash conversations on conversations where 100% of your financial support goes to the team that makes this show possible. Not only will you get some pretty great Conversations on Conversations swag, because isn’t that what we all want, but you’ll also get access to early episodes that are ad free. 

 

A final shout out to our crew that makes this show possible. To our producer, Nick Wilson, to our sound editor, Drew Noll, to our transcriptionist, Becky Reinert, to our marketing consultant, Jessica Burdg and the rest of the SNoWCo crew. Thank you. And just a final thank you to Gilmara Vila Nova-Mitchell for showing us what it looks like to lead as a human and with our humanity. Well my friends, this concludes this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations. Remember, when we can change the conversations we have with ourselves and others, we can change the world. So until next week, please be sure to rest and rehydrate and we’ll see you again soon.