Join Sarah Noll Wilson and guest Dr. Teresa Peterson as they explore the power of unlearning, and how identifying and “pruning” old beliefs, behaviors, and thought patterns can be the key to greater growth and learning.
Dr. Teresa Peterson is the Director of Learning and Development for Sarah Noll Wilson, Inc. In her daily work, she serves as Sarah’s key content collaborator. Teresa enjoys facilitating, researching, and is passionate about applying best practices for learning to make our experiences meaningful, engaging, and accessible for all types of learners. Teresa holds a Doctorate in Education from the University of Northern Iowa and brings over twenty years of experience teaching, facilitating, and leading to our team. Our clients love Teresa’s grounded energy, depth of thought, and ability to listen deeply.
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah Noll Wilson
Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Conversations on Conversations where each week we explore a topic to help us have more powerful conversations with ourselves and others. I’m your host, Sarah Noll Wilson. And joining me back is my dear friend, and colleague, Dr. Teresa Peterson.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Hello!
Sarah Noll Wilson
Now for those of you – Hi! Welcome to the show, Teresa.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Thanks. Good to be back. Fancy meeting you here. Good.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. (laughter) For those of you who are watching on YouTube and watching the video, you will notice that our background is different. And for those of you who are listening, you might notice a little bit of difference in our sound. That is because my friends, I got moved out of the corner in the basement and I have a proper office with a proper door. And I’m gonna give you way too much information, but I’m not in the carpet where the dogs would always pee. So it is just a glorious day all around.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
It’s a new day. (laughter)
Sarah Noll Wilson
So bear with us as we figure all of this new set is setting out so we’re super excited. Let’s do just a quick introduction of Dr. Teresa Peterson for those of you who may be joining us and haven’t listened to some of our previous conversations or maybe don’t follow us on the newsletter. Dr. Teresa Peterson has her Doctorate of Education. She has a decades upon decades worth of experience in learning in the public school system. She’s been a part of the SNoWCo team for the last five and a half years, will be six years this summer.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yes!
Sarah Noll Wilson
And she is our director of research and learning or learning and development. It’s just all the things. She just wears all the hats.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
So many hats.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s, the title doesn’t even fit –
Dr. Teresa Peterson
(laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
Because of the expansiveness of your role. But she works very closely, she and I work really closely together in content development, experience design, she works very closely with clients, she has her own clients. And today we wanted to talk about this idea of unlearning. And I will tee it over to Teresa – before we get into the topic of unlearning, Teresa, what’s new? Since last time? It can’t be what’s new since last time we talked yesterday. But what is new since last time this audience has, has been with us.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
(laughs) Oh. Everyone, I just want you to know I’ve made it through my first year as a show choir parent. So, if – I don’t know if there’s a support group, I just have to start resting up for next year. So that’s that’s big on my mind and in my heart and tomorrow I’ll be making a yellow cake. I just, just, whatever out there. (laughs)
Sarah Noll Wilson
We’ve had lots of conversations about this yellow cake. Is show choir a global thing for our international audiences? Maybe you explain what show choir is for or for folks who aren’t even global who need to know.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yes. So –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Need is a strong word. Who might be interested in knowing.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yeah. I listened to some podcasts where they might say like, if this is of no interest to you, just skip ahead about 20 seconds. Show choir I think is particularly big in the Midwest United States. But I do think it has a global presence on some realm. But show choir is probably best visualized from the show Glee. So if you’ve watched Glee, so it’s like singing and dancing, and twirling and sequins and just all sorts of –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Very choreographed. Everyone is dancing, everyone is singing, lots of jazz hands. Lots of smiling.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yes. Yes. So much moving around, you know, lots of yelling by the audience.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Dr. Teresa Peterson
So it’s, it’s you have to really be ready to take it in. So I made and for those of you who’ve listened before, maybe you know, my energy is like, even keel gal, you know, just doing my thing. So I have to get, like, emotionally prepared to go in there, but I made it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. (laughs) I love it so much. Okay, so now on to our topic of unlearning.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And I, you know what I’ll start by saying and then turn it over to you is, so often, when we are working with companies, and they are bringing us in, or even if it’s a keynote, the thing that we hear a lot is like we need new stuff, we need new tools, we need new practices, we need new this new that. And that is valuable. We do need new ways of thinking, we need new ways of doing things. But that isn’t the only way that we can learn in the way that we can change our behavior. So how, how would you describe, Teresa, this idea of unlearning?
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Unlearning! I want to start by echoing what you’re saying that the most common thing we hear from folks is new tools, new tools, new tools, and I think, I think we can do a good job of delivering those new tools. And I think there are lots of places you can go to find new tools. Whether it’s articles, Ted Talks, podcasts, there are no shortage of places to find new tools. But the issue is, first of all, you know, this is my bias, we have probably way more exposure to tools that we can’t use effectively, or we’ve used once and it kind of go like, I don’t know, this reminds me of home remodeling, where you get some highly specialized thing to do a staircase, and then maybe you make one stair and I better hire this done, it’s a mess. And then before you know what, like, you’ve just got this tool hanging on forever, but you’re not great with it anyway. That might be related to what’s going on in my house right now. But that’s an aside, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Dr. Teresa Peterson
That could be a highly specific personal example. But, but we’ve got this sense of, we can get so much exposure, but if we can’t do anything with them, we’re kind of stuck. So learning more isn’t going to help us utilize what’s already in there any better. So I think that’s one layer that we often talk about. And then this other idea is if I’ve got some serious cracks in my foundation, and maybe that foundation is skills or ideas, specifically ideas, and mindsets, well worn behaviors that are getting in the way of how I’m showing up with people dumping a bunch of new stuff on there isn’t going to do the trick. Right? I have to untangle some of what’s getting in the way, I have to unlearn some of those behaviors. And that’s something you know, I certainly get really excited about this idea of unlearning. But it’s quite provocative for people. Sometimes when we’re meeting with folks, and we use this phrase, unlearning, you know, you see a little seat shifting, you know, you see a little, what exactly does that mean? I think a misunderstanding about this idea of unlearning would mean everything I ever knew is suddenly irrelevant. And I’m starting back at the square one kind of situation. That isn’t what it is, right? But we might think about it as what do we need to prune out of there? You know, what’s getting in the way? What’s tangled up that’s keeping us from moving forward? Because we can have many new tools. And if we don’t understand maybe how they’re incompatible with how we’ve been showing up? Forget it.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, it’s the – when you were talking, (laughs) going on the remodeling, when you’re talking about the cracks in the foundation, our last house had water in the basement. And all I kept thinking was, Yeah, and if you don’t take care of those, then those new tools eventually just become damaged by the water that’s seeping in and won’t be functional anyway.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Well, and how many times, you know, and I’m thinking of other places I’ve worked and thinking of folks that we talk to all the time, it is very common for people to feel like it was the fault of the tools. Like, we wanted new tools, and you came in, and then these tools didn’t work. And it’s like, maybe you didn’t have the skill to do it, maybe you didn’t have an interest in doing it. I think that’s a common place people get stuck. Just like you’re describing with the basement of, we could have patched it up a little bit and made it look fresh enough. But the water is going to come in and contaminate everything again, because the existing, you know – I don’t like to think of humans as having structural problems, right. But just we’ll go with the metaphor. But when we have existing problems, significant problems and mindset that are getting in the way, anything you throw at it is just just gonna bounce off. Or – I don’t know, just pop and go flat.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Well, your your, that language you use of pruning, I think is is really effective. Because, again, to echo what Teresa had said that sometimes when, when folks, and again, not everyone, but when some folks have heard us use this term, you know, what do we need to unlearn? Or how do we explore this is that it implies that you were wrong. And, and in, you know, in most situations with dealing with humans and human relationships and communications, there’s no right or wrong. It’s just what’s effective and what’s not effective, given the moment, given the audience. And in a willingness to be able to understand analogy, I think folks on this show have maybe heard me use and when I know we talk about is the idea of foot on the gas, foot on the brake. If I have my foot on the gas, and it’s my enthusiasm to make this change, it’s my, the tools that I’m getting. Okay, I’m gonna be a better listener, I’m going to do this and that’s my foot on the gas. But if I do not interrogate, if I do not understand what assumptions I’m holding, what biases I might have, what limitations of my skills I might have, that foot on the brake means I’m sort of like at best gonna just like burn forward, but at worst, I’m just is going to keep circling. And, and so when we think about, you know, and to connect it to the focus of the show, which has always been conversations we have with ourselves and others, even that is a form of unlearning. What’s the conversations I’m having with myself that aren’t serving me? Or what are the ways I’m showing up in my conversations with others? So as we as we explore this idea – well, there’s a couple of things that I think we can explore throughout our conversation is, what has unlearning looked like for us? Right? What are examples of that? But first, I want to start from a place of what what does it look like to start to unlearn? Or what are some strategies or questions we can ask? So imagine, you’re like, I want to get better at x, I want to improve whatever it is, where might be some places for folks to start Teresa?
Dr. Teresa Peterson
So the first thing that came up for me when you mentioned that was, I want us to differentiate even a little more.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Please.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Unlearning, through my eyes, means I have a developed habit, I run this on autopilot. I think that’s a really important distinction, because I’m thinking about, you know, this isn’t a work example. But let’s picture someone who’s been using training wheels, and they can’t stop putting that left foot down, right, but it’s not quite autopilot for them, they’re still moving forward. There are lots of very easy structural things we can do. We can just take one wheel off, we could take both wheels off, like we could do so many things. It’s not ingrained habit yet. We’re thinking about things we do on autopilot, particularly related to how we connect with people. And I think, you know, there’s so many high tech illustrations of like the brain and like, neural pathways like synapse, but like, just picture Clark W Griswald on that sled in Christmas vacation, lightning fast, you know, like, he’s just going down the hill, it is so fast. You, you have to or even raise your awareness that you’re doing it, right? That’s what’s at kind of that, at the heart of unlearning is a very ingrained habit. And something else that came up as you were talking there was, so we have this idea of this ingrained habit, something that is on autopilot and – a place that folks get stuck sometimes is, again, this isn’t progressive skill development, think of the kid riding the bike, where it’s generally going in the right direction, we make some tweaks along the way. This is like, if I want to get better at something, I’m gonna have to let something go. I’ve been doing this so long this one way, maybe without even realizing it. And the departure and I’m thinking about some conversations we’ve had recently, right Sarah. Where the departure, the where I am now and maybe maybe where I’m at is where all managers are, you know, hypothetically, and collectively, where we need to get to is so fundamentally different. There’s no way I can take everything I have with me right now to this new place. I’m gonna have to let some of that go, drop some weight off of that hot air balloon or whatever, right like to get up to where I’m headed. So that feels like an important distinction to me. So I think places to start would be, let’s just use one of our favorite things, self awareness, right, I have to even become aware of the things I do on autopilot. And that’s challenging because your brain is lightning fast. So getting as specific as possible, is it in converse – is it in my one on ones? Is it in my conversations with this person? Is it in my Monday meeting? If you want to focus on unlearning, I want you to narrow the scope very small, so you can keep your brain’s attention on those autopilot behaviors. So that’s my starting point. What comes up for you, Sarah as you hear that?
Sarah Noll Wilson
A couple of things. I’ll share a little bit later about some strategies of how you can use other people who can, right, ride co-pilot with you, be apart of your team. Because one of the things that can make it difficult, and I’ve experienced this in my life, I’ve seen it in others, is that you can be aware of something, and to your point, when it’s such an auto pilot response you may never, you’ll likely never catch it every time you do it. But being able to have other people in your world who know that you’re working on it. So that was one thing that was coming up. But this feels like a really good segue into talking about the practice of the courageous audit, because you don’t always know what you don’t know. And sometimes It takes seeing somebody do something a different way. Sometimes it takes getting feedback that is maybe not the feedback you wanted. Maybe it is wanting to try to show up differently. Maybe you’re a first time manager and you’re like, how do I, how do I be better than the managers I’ve had? And so it can be a little overwhelming, or people can be uncertain with how, well, how do I identify what I’m doing? If I knew I would have changed them already. So talk to us. So my brain, I guess, just to check in with you is like, this feels like a really good spot to talk about the courageous audit work.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Sure. So something that makes a courageous audit really valuable, is having a very clear picture of where it is you’re trying to go. Right? Because otherwise, it’s too easy to get lost, or maybe to pick out the wrong things. So as you’re thinking about unlearning, have a very clear picture in your mind. And usually, when I’m starting on this work of a courageous audit with another person, this is coming from the work of Immunity to Change, which is so close to our heart. I ask them to think about what they want to get better at? And then to describe what would it look like? What would it feel like? What would it sound like? Like, bring it to life as much as you can. Again, maybe you’ve seen someone do it really well, maybe it’s I want to do this as well as Nick Wilson does it, right? Like get it as very clear as you can. And then from that very clear image in your mind – now we can go two ways. One way I do love to start, which was not formally part of the process is more appreciative inquiry, but as to say, What am I already doing that’s actually getting me closer? So maybe I already fundamentally respect the people around me, right? Like maybe I already have that in my heart, maybe I already have one on ones on the calendar, maybe I already whatever, fill in the blank. It feels like a good moment to pause and like, prime yourself a little, give yourself some, a little boost. Because we know the next phases can be really hard of the courageous audit. What am I doing that’s getting in the way? And what am I not doing that’s getting in the way? So the good thing is I’ve got these one on one scheduled, what’s getting in the way is I’m actually not coming with any talking points organized. I haven’t looked back at the last week to see something we might celebrate together so I can kick it off on a good foot. I dominate the conversation, right? I’ve already got my mind made up before the person comes in how this is gonna go. Some people feel like a waste of time for a one on one. I mean, I’m just spitballing a whole bunch that we’ve heard regularly.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
But in that spirit, again, unlearning requires – you know, picture a surgeon, and you’re gonna have to be very precise. We’re not going in there and tearing the whole thing up. We are looking for what is not serving us, what is holding us back, what is getting in the way. And we’re going to just go after those things. So again, I like the process of honoring, what am I already doing, whether it’s mindsets, whether it’s structural things you have in place, and then what’s getting in the way? And what am I not doing that’s getting in the way? And that’s one of my favorite. And you can do this with yourself. And I’ll tell you – Sorry, we were talking about this yesterday, Sarah, in terms of like how, like, we pride ourselves, I think you and I and everyone here at Team Sarah Noll Wilson Inc. on tools for the whole person, ideas for the whole person. And we were talking a little bit about the young people in our lives yesterday, and you can absolutely use this courageous audit. There is a loved one in my life, and this person wants a clean room. And I, this is where, you know, a good catch and I’ll do some modeling, like, of something I’ve unlearned. We’ll tell it through this story. Growing up, what I learned was, the parent would just tell the kid for the most part what needed to happen and then the kids job was just executing it or not and facing a consequence, right, classic parenting kind of thing. And what I’m working on right, what I’m unlearning is that wait wasn’t really serving me, didn’t really serve my style, didn’t really serve the end I was hoping for you know, for an adult young person becoming an adult in my care. And so I used to the courageous audit, like if you know that you want this clean room and you know, describe it like stuffs off the bed, the area over here you know, whatever, get clear about it in your mind. What are you doing that’s getting in the way? And the responses were great. I don’t, I don’t throw trash away. I just put my clothes on the floor instead of in a hamper. I, you know, whatever. Okay, what are you not doing, right? So you can use those in moments of, what’s getting in the way and when someone can unlock that for themselves, that’s way more powerful than me saying, Well, you don’t put your clothes in the hamper, and you don’t throw any trash away. And you, you know, I know you’re hiding candy under there, you know or whatever. (laughter) Fill in the blank, right? But, but there’s a lot of power in owning that audit because what we don’t want to happen, we don’t want people to feel shame about their patterns. Like if you want people to move forward, you just meet them where they’re at, you just honor where they’re at. And they go, and there’s power in them voicing, this isn’t serving me or this thing I do is getting in the way. Now, how do I go forward with it? That’s kind of the next phase. Right? But, but that awareness of this is getting in my way is a powerful thing to say out loud.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, and for a lot of folks that we work with when we do this practice, and this is true for us as well, because again, we we never ask people to do things that we aren’t actively working on ourselves. For some people, that’s enough to just as soon as they say it go, Oh, okay. Okay. All right, I need to think about this differently. And then and then there might be situations where you go, right, I don’t I do do that. And I don’t like it. And I’m not, I don’t like how that shows up. You know what I’m thinking for myself. One of the things that I continue to work on is my sarcasm. I grew up in a very sarcastic family and I, sarcasm is fine and can be lovely. And sarcasm is a very, very close cousin to contempt, which we know is one of the four like apocalyptic behaviors of ruining a relationship. And, and so part of the reason why I’m trying to unlearn it is because it is in conflict with how I want to show up. I want to show up as somebody who is supportive, I want to show up as somebody who meets people where they’re at not teases them where they’re at. I want to, like I want to create safer environments. And sarcasm can be misinterpreted. It can come across as sharper than what you intended to, it can dismiss, silence,` shut people down. And so for me, I’m thinking about in that moment, of as I’m assessing, and going where, like, I, it’s become easy for me to sort of scale that back because it feels very tangible. Now, let’s flip to another thing. And again, I’ll use myself as an example. And then we can talk about some examples from people we’ve worked with that are pretty consistent patterns. You know, a classic one I talked about is wanting to be a better listener. And, you know, and one of the things that I have to work on is interrupting people, whether it’s internally interrupting or externally interrupting.
Yes, well let’s pause, I want to zoom out. For everybody listening. Did you hear the specificity Sarah had? I might be interrupting by saying something. And I might be interrupting by my brain thinking what I would say if I let it come out of my mind?
(laughs) Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
No, and I’m saying that with 100% love. Like, I just wanted to highlight that’s the level you’ve got to get to with yourself. Yeah, go ahead, go ahead.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Yeah, it mean, let’s be even more specific, right. Like I often use this, this example of my husband’s a slower talker than me. And so there were times, this is actually, I’ve gotten, I’ve unlearned this one very successfully now. But it took a while. That he might be telling a story that I feel like I know where it’s going. And inside my head, like outwardly, it looks like I’m listening, inside my head I’m thinking speeded up, buddy. I know, we’re where this is going, which is always fun to tell stories about Nick, because he’s listening in as our producer. So (laughs) –
Dr. Teresa Peterson
You’re great, Nick.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, but it’s not as simple as saying, well just don’t interrupt anymore. Because I mean, there’s a couple of reasons for me. I know part of my interruption comes from my ADHD and my impulsivity. And sometimes that’s just not in my control, or it takes it or it takes way more effort than I realized to be able to manage it and to know situations where it’s going to seep out.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
But the other side of it is starting to get clear and interrogating. Like, what is it serving when I interrupt because there’s something about when I’m interrupting that, yeah, could be because my impulsivity, but there are times when I’m interrupting, because it’s actually serving me in some way that I might not realize it and I’m curious like, how you want to, how do you want to go into the next step of like this without overcomplicating it?
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yeah. Okay, one thing before we move forward. If you are listening and you’re I’m going to conduct a courageous audit on yourself. And I want to, I want to be honest, it’s called a courageous audit, because there’s an element of courage in telling on yourself, which is a very technical term, to tell on yourself. And if you’re like me, you might do this regularly and not vocalize it to anyone, you know, you might process kind of internally, maybe you tell your dog or your cat, you know, or that your favorite squirrel who comes by. This process can be very solitary work. But it is also very powerful and shared with someone you trust. So but if you’re listening, and you’re doing this on your own, I like to have kind of my little flashing light on looking for the word “time” to come up. Because without a doubt, someone is going to list time as a barrier, you know, what I’m not doing? Well, I just don’t have enough time, you know, and bless it, time always comes out with kind of a shrug, just kind of like, Oh, what am I supposed to do, time? So if you’re doing this process on your own, or you’re going to walk through it with someone else, maybe you and a colleague or friend will do it together, you have to pick up the rock of time and look for those little creepy crawlies underneath. What is it about time? Is it that you truly haven’t prioritized it? Is it, a common one I hear is, I say this is important, I put no time on the schedule for it at all, just like it’s magically going to happen. Right? Time has also meant I put things on the schedule, and then I just allow other things to creep in, you know. So be on the lookout for that one. It always brings up a flashing light for me. So –
Sarah Noll Wilson
And to that point. Yeah, just a further clarification, or addition is, when we’re doing a courageous audit, it is the behaviors, it is the things we are doing internally and externally that are within our control.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Thank you. Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s not about external factors like, well, I can’t be effective, because my manager is doing this. Well, I can’t be effective because my wife or my husband or my partner is doing that. What are you doing that you have within your sphere of influence that you can control?
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yeah, yes. And so thank you so much for highlighting that. Because if you’re doing an audit, and you don’t have a verb in there, you’re not quite there. Right? So time is just –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Give an example.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Well, time. It’s time. Time is a noun, right? Like time just exists. It’s time. It’s not like time as a concept is out of my control. How I’m using it? Am I not scheduling? Am I scheduling over? Oh, one I’ve heard that was so honest. I say this is important, but also I know it’s hard. So I intentionally fill my calendar to avoid doing it. That was one that came out and like that’s that’s how you unlock. That’s how you start untangling, right and like unlearning, and then preparing yourself to learn something new in its place. Right? So we can go a couple paths here, Sarah. So you, you touched on a phase of this process, that for some folks is really valuable and necessary. I love that you said for some people the courageous audit is enough. Like, oh, I shined the light on myself, or I said to myself or even to a colleague, I’ve been putting it off because I know it’s hard, right? And that might be just enough to kind of unlock what’s happening, to get a little get a little traction, get you moving again. But when we really think about what’s underneath, sometimes that’s where we have to keep digging. That common example that you used, and this one was real for you but it’s one we hear often, is about listening and why am I showing up the way I’m showing up? What is it serving for me to do this? Another one I hear a lot is collaboration, right? I want to get better at collaborating. But I keep holding on to all the work myself. But I never give anyone an update on what I’m gonna do. But I intentionally withhold some of the information so no one else can really fully contribute and then I say this is why I have to do it. Right?
Yeah. Or delegating, that’s another one.
Yes, oh yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Another one, when we’re working with managers is I want to be better at developing my team members. I want to empower them. I want to set them up for success. And then when they start to unpack, what are you doing that’s getting in the way? it’s, I’m not letting them have any autonomy. I’m asking them questions to get to my solutions. I’m (chuckles) what are some of my favorite ones that often come up with this – and we’re sharing this because you might resonate folks. Like, uh, oh, that’ me. I do it because I don’t think they can do it the right way. IE my way. I, you know, like insert whatever.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
But that’s another common one is those struggles around delegating and setting other people up for success.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
And I think delegating is a great example, and I’m thinking of one particular situation that you and I know well. I bet if we would ask this person, gee person, gee manager, what are some strategies for delegating? This person could academically list 25 ways you could delegate work to someone else. It was not a skill deficit. It is, there is an ideological, there is a there’s a friction, right? There’s a competing commitment at play. He wants to do a better job at this, but he’s also committed to and then it’s just like, gridlock, you know. So, again, for some folks, it just takes shining a light on that. Now, if you’re listening, and you show, you shown? Is that the past, I often say shine, shown? If you put a light (laughter) if you directed light toward that, and that didn’t work for you, that is not anything about you, as a human. That means this particular issue, there’s more to the story. So I just like to give people a little love in that area. Because it would be easy. And I’ve gone down this path myself of, why wasn’t it enough for me to just look and be able to make these changes? Because some stuffs just more complicated.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
That’s just how it is. So, so again, whether you’re doing this yourself, alongside someone, there is no shame in having to dig deeper. Like, saying I got to dig deeper is a victory. I mean, that’s a very honorable thing to do. So I want to highlight that because, we, we tend to think if I need more, if I need more intervention, if I need more concentrated help, that it’s, something’s horribly wrong. But these are complicated issues. You know, we’re trying to shine a light on the inner workings of your operating system, right, that to some extent, are probably still working, because you’re where you are, and you’re alive and moving and going. But there is this idea of a competing commitment and goodness, couldn’t this be a whole other show on competing commitments? But this idea that I’m actually doing these behaviors, many of them I know I’m doing, I think that’s a good distinction. I have some awareness that I keep doing them. Because what’s at stake if I don’t, feel so awful. I mean, there’s something real clear in there. So if I am not, you know, I’m gonna go to an example you’ve shared a lot. And I love it. And I use it regularly. Because I’m afraid if I don’t interrupt, I’ll be ignored.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I won’t be heard.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yeah. Yeah. And how terrible it would feel to feel ignored or not heard. Right? That’s a terrible feeling. So like, for some of us, we have to go, now I’m thinking back to, very common, whether it’s collaboration or delegation, the rub against that is usually I’ll be obsolete. Or people will think I don’t have it anymore. People will think I’m an idiot, right? There’s, if you’re listening like, well, that doesn’t sound, that sounds too severe. Part of the brain is holding on to this fear. And that’s what’s got you locked in place, right? Or not you maybe, but your team member or loved one. So there is more there to unravel. And that part, it’s fun. And that’s a little tricky. And it requires us to really get the magnifying glass out. But whether you are, whether you’ve got enough to unlock back at just that first step of the courageous audit, or whether you have to dig a little deeper. Either way, the path forward is through some experimentation.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, and that, and that willingness that, you know, the whole for me the example of oh, if I don’t interrupt, there’s some part of my brain that believes, if I don’t interrupt, I won’t be heard. You can – I, even saying that out loud is like well, I know that that’s not true.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yeah, yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And yet, and yet, our friends, the brain isn’t always logical. The brain isn’t always, you know, the delegating. Oftentimes, it’s, I’m afraid I will no longer be adding value as a leader. Ah, and that’s where you can start to test it, like is that – how is that true? Or how is it not true? And this is part of the unlearning, there can be so much power in going, okay. So not only am I aware now that I interrupt, but I’m starting to understand when am I interrupting because it’s a lack of intentional focus, impulsivity, using myself as an example. But when am I interrupting because I’m afraid I’m not going to be heard? And so how can I show up differently. And this applies to, I feel like any, any kind of ultimate behavior change or mindset change is there’s – and the value of identifying, what do I need to start pruning? Or you know, I think about a coach I worked with a while ago that was, she talked about it as like you’re pulling little weeds. And the thing you have to understand is you’re not pulling that weed once and it’s gone. Right? If I could pull weeds once in my front yard, my yard would be amazing. But I swear to God, the minute I pull one, four more pop into its place, like “Hello, here I am!” And so the same is true for unlearning. And unlearning can be doing something, unlearning could be how you’re thinking about something. And you know, one of the things I was curious to get your thoughts about Teresa, as I was reflecting on our conversation, is thinking about how much unlearning I’ve had to do on my journey of, of working towards greater diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging, right? That – and slice it and dice it whatever way you want. So it’s not about like, oh, is that unlearning? Or is that actually learning a new way of looking at stuff? Doesn’t matter. It’s just are you paying attention to it? But you know, one of the biggest things that I still have to continue to unlearn is that just the reality that everyone’s lived experience is different. And what that, what’s, what’s comfortable and right for me isn’t going to be comfortable and right for others. I’ve had to unlearn, or, again, like, this is something that I’ve been chewing on is, for those of you who maybe don’t know, right, we’re based in Iowa, and Iowa is a very homogenous society. It’s a very white homogenous society. It’s also homogenous in the terms of how people show up, right? There’s a really high value of fitting in, there’s a really high value of sameness, even if it’s not, right, just about race. And so like having to unlearn not paying attention to who’s got the microphone, paying attention to the panel of speakers up there. I don’t know if I’m making sense here. But that was something that I was just reflecting on. Or unlearning beliefs and biases that I’ve held that well, I’m a good person. So I’m a good person, therefore, there’s no way I could behave in ways that were racist. And like, that’s just simply not true.
Well, and I think that’s something that we see. And by we, I mean, the larger circle of friends and colleagues that we run in. I don’t mean, just you and I, and I’m channeling our colleague Jilmata here for a moment too, among others, but that’s a common misstep of DEI work.
Yeah.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
If we’re just dumping new tools, if you were just like, it’s a checkbox of I need more diverse speakers for the purpose of more diverse speakers, without doing the untangling, without calling attention to the messages in your operating system, you know. Something that came up for me, just going back a little bit, we were talking about homogenous and that culture of sameness. And some work around a courageous audit I did for myself, was related to some issues around motherhood. And I love this process, because it’s, it can be applied to literally anything you’re doing, right? And so, I want to go at this two ways. One is, when you’re, if you are a person, and you’re in the spot like I was and you need to go to that deeper level, look for the part that’s uncomfortable to say out loud. And here’s an example from the work I did.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s not altruistic.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
What I was saying out loud was, well, I want to be a good mom. And so what I lovingly call out in that process is like, if you would put this on a button and wear it around, you haven’t found it yet. It’s not uncomfortable enough. You need to keep going. Because that’d be fine. You know, like, I can say, Sarah, I’m really committed to being a good mom. And you’d say like, that’s nice. And then we’d move on, right? Like, that’s not the juicy thing. That doesn’t need to be untangled. Right? But this relates to the culture of sameness. But what I got to was, I didn’t want to be seen as a bad mom in front of the other people in this circle. And that does not feel good to say out loud. That implies other behaviors and thoughts I have that are part of like how I’m connecting to the bigger group. Maybe fears I have related to that how I’m showing up in this group, right? There’s much more to untangle there. And what is part of what was holding my behavior in place, and so I want to loop it back to it, even as you’re going through that process of the audit or you’re going to that deeper place. There will absolu – if it was that easy you would have changed already. There are there things from your upbringing in there, there are societal norms, you know, tied to the place you live, that will no doubt come up. Whether it’s related to your worth, or you know, whatever, that’s a common one, you’re worth, whether that would be how others are perceiving you or how you’re contributing. It’s part of what makes this process so valuable and, and seeing all of those things at play in yourself. But yeah, that I mean, again, back to this, people can have all the checklists they want related to things, if they don’t understand why it matters, what’s at stake, what they do that gets in the way, you know, that’s nice, we can have a beautiful, diverse panel, and then we’re only promoting the same folks. So like, we got to, we got to do some work, right?
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah. There’s a, some some other tools that are coming up, you know, as I think about this, this practice of unlearning. And again, the idea is not to shame.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
No.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s just to recognize and honor, this is where I’m at, it’s different than where I want to be. This is different than how I want to show up. This is, right, and we always talk in our work, celebrate the catch. That it’s not about beating yourself up. It’s not about like. oh there I did it again. But it’s, okay that’s an opportunity, I caught it to do something different. One of the questions we like to ask ourselves, and you know, and (laughs) Teresa just did this to me recently. (laughs)
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Uh oh.
Sarah Noll Wilson
No, no, but is it a rule or a possibility?
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Is it? Is it a rule that has to be done this way? Or is that just a possibility is another way, right? So some of the things I’m unlearning as a business owner, you know, the company started, when it was just me. It was me for essentially, you know, 11 years, it was just me. Doing the work, going out and speaking, creating content, you know. Teresa comes on board, it was still a few years befor we were collaborating in the way. And it’s really only been in the last year and a half, maybe two years where that started to shift. So my default, my autopilot, going back to that point. My autopilot is when there’s maybe a significant client, all clients are significant. But let’s say it’s like a different level of intention, intentionality, time, with a client. My autopilot is well, it’ll be me because it’s always been me. And you know, we have a situation, a client, where I made this comment to Teresa, and I said, well, so I’ll probably be the first of this one. And she’s like the do you? And I was like, Oh, right! (laughs) Like I have to start unlearning what’s possible as a business owner. The other thing that I wanted to share is unlearning, for me personally, not only has been so valuable as a leader, as a practitioner of this work, in my relationships, but it’s probably been one of the hardest and yet most important skills I learned in managing my mental health. Some people may recall that end of last year, I shared and had the privilege of interviewing Dr. Martin Seif and Sally Winston, two experts in OCD. And – because I was diagnosed with it – and again, here I have a 42 years of patterns of wanting to seek certainty in situations that will never be certain. And, and so unlearning that is part of what has helped in my being able to manage it more effectively. But the the reason I bring that up, is it has taken having Nick be super informed and aware of it. Obviously, my therapist is informed and aware of it, and holding up that mirror when I’m asking questions seeking certainty, and I’ll just like, share some real examples. If I’m really tired, my brain is like, why was, why am I so tired? And it’s trying to find the reason for why I’m so tired. Our dog, Sally, sometimes when she gets overstimulated, she’ll get seizures. It’s usually really obvious. She was around a bunch of people that night when she finally unwinds. Recently, she had a seizure, and it was like nothing, nothing, you couldn’t point to anything to say this is why she had a seizure. And my brain was getting fixated on, but why would she have gotten it? You know, and, and so Nick does a really nice job of like, again, kind of that unlearning of, it feels like you’re looking for certainty in a situation that we may never be certain. And so the power of having someone who can ride co-pilot, having multiple copilots with you, right? Whether it’s how we work together Teresa or your spouse or your, even your kids sometimes can be really beautiful –
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Oh yeah! I mean, they may be the mirrors of all.
Sarah Noll Wilson
It’s, it’s unlearning, my experience, it will never be as effective when it’s a solo sport.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Versus having somebody who has your back. And then that requires you to be open to that feedback, to be open to somebody pushing you to help you see where what you’re doing is in conflict with how you’re trying to show up.
Yeah. And I want to get on the balcony with this.
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Because you mentioned celebrate the catch, and I want to break down for folks. Celebrating the catch. At first, you’re gonna see it after it’s happened, right? That’s kind of how it happens. And then slowly, you’ll probably see it like, Oh, it’s coming out of my mouth now. Maybe I course correct.
Sarah Noll Wilson
(laughs)
Dr. Teresa Peterson
And then you’re gonna see it before it happens, right? And the catch is you noticing your autopilot, you becoming aware of the wiring in your operating system. So celebrate the catch, call your brains attention to, cause your brains running a lot of stuff. It’s like, I got a heartbeat happening here. We’re breathing. I’m making eggs. What do you want me to do right now?
Sarah Noll Wilson
I’m making a yellow cake.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
I’m making a yellow cake. Come on, I got a lot happening. So, you know, pause and, and highlight that for your brain. And the other thing that you demonstrated so beautifully, so I want to make sure everyone listening or watching with us caught it. You used the phrase, hold up the mirror. And that is a very different way of partnering in this work than saying (sarcastically) You’re doing it again. Why are you going on about it –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
There you go, ahh.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Don’t worry about it.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
I thought you said you were working on that? I mean, think of all the dismissive things or hurtful things.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh god, yeah.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
As opposed to, I’m wondering if this fits into, right, a loving question. Or a, Hm,. let’s get on the balcony together. What do we think’s going on right now, right? If you – because I’m guessing this might be true for you. And you chime in because you speak for you. What often happens if someone isn’t holding a mirror and is kind of pushing back, they think they’re pushing you. You cling more tightly, or the trust goes down. So either Oh, I love you. But now I have to hold tighter to this because you’re not seeing how how much it means to me or how hard this is? Or like I guess I can’t share it with you. Like, it will not result in things moving forward for learning purposes. It is almost always entrench in your behavior or, you know, harm to the relationship. So what resonates for you or doesn’t?
Sarah Noll Wilson
I mean, yeah, no, I mean, all of that, all of that resonates for me, because and I appreciate that distinction, because there are times when, again, people may mean well, but actually what they’re doing is silencing you or dismissing you, or, again, if they’re being sarcastic, it can feel really cutting. And when it’s something that people are genuinely committed to working on. How do you make it? I mean, it goes both ways. Right? On one hand is, how do you if you’re the one holding up the mirror, do it in a way that can be easier for the person to consider? And then the other flip side is, and then how do I go, Oh, man, you’re right. Thank you, instead of like, God, why do you have to call me out all the time? Or, why do you have to, you know, or feeling shut down. And so it’s, it’s a, it’s a, it depends kind of situation. But that is such an important distinction, because we often see that. I’ve experienced that, I’ve been on the receiving end of it. And let me tell you, folks, nothing is going to shut somebody down faster than you basically, like shaming them, right? For what they’re doing. And even if your intentions are good, it doesn’t matter. Your impact is sharp. And so, so what does this what does this look like? That’s one thing that’s coming up for me. The other thing, something you said, and this was something that came out of a session you and I did together last year, of just that importance of how do we start shining a light and becoming more conscious of our unconscious behavior, right? And that, and that’s effort, and I’m wondering if you can speak to a little bit of, of just the reality of the time it takes and I want to set up, I want to set this up a little bit. There’s a lot of bad quote unquote science. I’m putting air quotes because it’s not. That’s like it takes 21 days to break a habit and 28 days to create a new habit. Okay, it’s bullshit. Bad, it’s not even science is bad, it marketing. But it’s important for us because when you are somebody, maybe you’re a parent, maybe you are a partner, maybe you’re a family member, maybe you’re a co-worker, maybe you’re a boss, maybe you’re a team member, whoever it is you’re in relationship with somebody. One of the traps I feel we see so often is, when we’re working on a behavior change, we want the amount of grace it takes for us to get there. When someone else is working on a behavior change, we don’t understand why they haven’t flipped a switch and turn the lights on and stop doing their behavior. So just like I want, I think that the – I have found unlearning can often be harder than learning something new. And so I’m curious to hear what comes up for you.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Well, we had a little conversation about decluttering. You know, and decluttering is way more emotional than buying. I mean, like, just think about it on a, like, yeah.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Oh god, um, that hits.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yeah, I don’t know, (laughter) and I say that with love to everyone listening. It takes, it’s much harder, generally speaking, to let go of things we’ve been holding on to, to let go of things we’ve been rewarded for, to let go of things we learned so long ago, we couldn’t possibly put a finger on it, because it’s been reinforced 1000s of times, and your point lands so well, because when we’re trying to do something new, that, that requires some of that work of untangling so that we can pick up some new stuff. We want people to get, you know, well it’s going to take six months, you know, kind of a thing. And then the other person, it’s like, we see this as a pitfall of training, right? And I don’t even love the word training, but whatever, we’re going to use the word, I’d much prefer the word learning, but okay, here we are. If, if people aren’t instantly changed, it must have been a waste of time.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
You know, if like, well, maybe if it’s just a minor policy change that you can just reference in a book, oh just page 89. You know, check it out. But that’s not what we’re talking about here. We’re talking about deep, deeply held behaviors, mindsets, ways of being, it takes much longer. So yeah, I mean, any time, honestly, any time I hear a number, I think that’s way too low, whatever it is. I said to a group maybe two weeks ago, whatever amount of time you think triple it for sure. Like, whatever it is, it’s at least three times. Because here’s the other thing. And I think we’ve seen quite a few examples of this. But where organizations want a huge change, an absolutely fundamental departure from how they have existed for a long time. And they want it instantly with instant payoffs. And that just isn’t honoring the reality of how humans are going to be in a significant change. And, you know, goodness, this is my teacher heart coming out. And if it takes a few extra weeks for us to get where we’re going in the big scope of the world, I think we’ll still be okay. Like, can we leave space for people to do this important work, giving them a little extra time? Because here’s the thing, if the end that you have in mind, or the goal, or the organizational change matters that much, give people the time it takes to do it, to get there, to become it, right, because that’s, I think that’s what’s missed. And maybe I haven’t articulated this, sometimes even when we’re talking. We’re asking people to become something else. To become someone else, in essence. If I’ve been nurtured and mentored to behave this way, and you want me to be this way, that’s gonna take me a little time.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. And yeah, and as we’ve talked, you know, to various clients, but I don’t think we’ve explored on the show, but this will be something for a future but I think it’s worth just planting the seed. Not only is it going to take time, but it’s going to take way more support, –
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yes!
Sarah Noll Wilson
Then companies understand and are willing to do it. And this is where, you know, when we talked about the courageous audit, we said that the focus is on internally, what are you doing, not doing, right? And that’s not to minimize or dismiss the environment you’re in.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yes.
Sarah Noll Wilson
So I just want to be really clear that that is a factor. It’s just when we’re doing the courageous audit, we want the focus to be on what we have control over.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Exactly.
Sarah Noll Wilson
First.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yep.
Sarah Noll Wilson
And and because, you know, we – the environment matters, the structure of the system you’re in matters, the people you surround yourself with matters. I am fortunate to be surrounded largely, because of you all, right, like, our colleagues that we get to – the privilege of working with our strategic partners. The work Nick and I are doing, that I’m largely surrounded and have surrounded myself with people who are actively working on their self awareness. Who are actively working on their emotional regulation, who are actively working on having conversations that are hard. And guess what, no surprise, it makes it easier to be able to step into those moments. Versus, I’m thrown back, I take some training. And I’m like, right, but my manager hasn’t gone through this. They’re not going to be supportive of it. It’s like, you know, this is one of my favorite stories. One of my favorite stories is my last company I was at, ARAG Legal. We were doing this major culture, major, major culture shift, and we were doing it in the right, like, we were doing it in a really effective way, right? And I remember standing at the back of the room with my CEO. And he said, he looked at me, he’s a man of few words, David. (chuckles) He goes, we’re really lucky to have you. And I was like, I really appreciate that. And I, my response to him was, and I’m really lucky to have you, because remember, I was this same person here as I was at my last job. But I didn’t get to thrive. I didn’t get to lean into all of my gifts because of the environment. So I just, that’s something I want to make sure that we – is that like, the intention of the reflection is to start with self but it doesn’t dismiss or minimize or diminish the reality of being in a system that isn’t set up for, that doesn’t make it easy for you to do what it is you’re trying to do differently.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yeah, I, no. That’s a, that’s a beautiful place to be done right there.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. Teresa, you always do such a good job of winding me down. And we always, (laughs) I always joke that I have verbal leakage. Like oh, do you have more? Like, no, the words are just coming out at this point. (laughs)
Dr. Teresa Peterson
No. I mean, you and I could go for like two more hours. But I was like, it’s probably, it’s probably time. I can’t see Nick’s face, but he’s probably like, –
Sarah Noll Wilson
Yep, wrap it up. (laughs) So here’s, here’s the invitation for you all. One, no matter where you are, what country you’re listening to us in – you know, we know we have friends in over 70 countries now. No matter what time of day, you’re listening to this, send us a message. We love to hear from you. More than you realize like more than you realize.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
True.
Sarah Noll Wilson
You can always do that at podcast @ sarahnollwilson dot com. But let us know what, what is something – when was a time you unlearned something? When was the time and you know, we’ll keep it confidential between Teresa and I and the email. But when was the time you unlearn something? Or what is something you’re actively working on? Or realizing that I’m, I’m having to unlearn this behavior? It just, it’s so valuable for us and our learning and our thinking. And honestly, we just want to support you. I mean, we’re, we have these conversations because we want to make an impact. So I say this with love my friends across the world. Send us messages at podcast @ sarahnollwilson dot com, and it will be one of us who will respond to you. And we would just love to hear what comes up for you. Final thoughts, Teresa, as we close out this conversation?
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Be kind to yourself, and push your own thinking.
Sarah Noll Wilson
I love it. It’s always such a treat to have you on Teresa, thanks for bringing your insight and wisdom. And please be sure to take a picture of that cake.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
We’ll link to it in the show notes. (laughter) I’m just kidding.
Sarah Noll Wilson
We will put Teresa’s contact information in the show notes. Yes, so Teresa, we asked this if everyone what’s the best way for people to connect with you if they want to get your yellow cake recipe from scratch? Or if we want to learn more about your world and the work you do.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
Yeah, you can reach out to me anytime Teresa @ sarahnollwilson dot com. I love to hear from you. Also on LinkedIn. Teresa Peterson, EDD. Yeah, that’s where I’m at.
Sarah Noll Wilson
All right. Thanks for being on the show my dear.
Dr. Teresa Peterson
My pleasure.
Sarah Noll Wilson
Our guest this week has been Dr. Teresa Peterson, my colleague, my, one of my favorite people in the whole world, and I always learn something from her every time we’re in conversation. And one of the things I’m, I felt in a very personal way (laughs), is the idea that decluttering takes way more effort and more emotional energy than buying something and that feels feels like that can work on many levels from where I’m at. And we want to hear from you, wherever you’re joining us from send us a message at podcast @ SarahNollWilson dot com. And we are the ones who read it and we’ll respond to it. And if you want to support the show, be sure to rate, review and subscribe to the show on your preferred podcast platform. You also can support the show financially by becoming a patron. You can go to patreon dot com slash conversations on conversations. Where not only you’ll get really great swag, but you’ll get early episodes and episodes without ads. Who doesn’t want that? I want to do a huge thank you to the team that makes this show possible. To our producer Nick Wilson, our sound editor Drew Noll, our transcriptionist Becky Reinert, our marketing support Jessica Burdg and the rest of the SNoWCo. crew. Thank you all so much for joining. This has been Conversations on Conversations and remember, when we change the conversations we have with ourselves and others we can change the world. So my friends, please rest, rehydrate and we’ll see you again next week.
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Sarah Noll Wilson is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. She aims to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching and Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health.